SGAETA at Bloc de anillas

SGAETA

Al margen de los p�caros c�nones de la esdr�jula SGAE tan comentados estos d�as, no cabe duda de que la patronal de autores lucha por los derechos de sus socios. En este caso, las v�ctimas han sido una serie de grupos musicales que han visto mermada su libertad de expresi�n por un qu�tame all� esa apolog�a del terrorismo. La SGAE, por supuesto, est� siempre de parte de sus socios, aunque los que les pagan las cuotas est�n de parte de los vaciadores de nucas. Parece ser que las letras y actitudes pro-etarras son consideradas por la SGAE como �manifestaciones culturales� e incluso comparan las canciones del inocente y c�ndido Ferm�n Muguruza con Mocedades. Por extensi�n, se entiende que los mandamases de la SGAE consideran al coche-bomba como pirotecnia fallera. En cualquier caso, el complot judeo-mas�nico que ha impedido algunas actuaciones de determinados grupos vascos tiene que acabar ya, no s� que ser�a del panorama musical espa�ol, e incluso mundial, sin la aportaci�n del mencionado Muguruza, de Sociedad Alkoh�lica o de Berri Txarrak.

Comments

danniel wrote:

Por lo menos ya sabemos hacia donde va el dinero del gravamen d DVD’s y discos duros: a financiar a esos chavales tan majos del pasamonta�as y dialecto animal.

De todos modos, es lo que cab�a de esperar de una Asociaci�n Mafiosa: que apoye (y financie?) a una organizaci�n terrorista.

Yo, por mi parte, ardo en deseos de volver a ver a ese muchachito tan progre como es Sabina exigiendo democr�ticamente que Mendiluce se retire de las elecciones en las pr�ximas generales.

Posted 23 Ene 2004 at 8:47 pm ¶
Q wrote:

�Viva la demagogia� Ni el inmundo Losantos lo hubiera hecho mejor.

Posted 23 Ene 2004 at 9:17 pm ¶
balarroja wrote:

os leo desde hace mucho. os respetaba. me hab�is decepcionado. est� todo dicho. agur

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 6:48 am ¶
Ramonc�n wrote:

�Qu� decepci�n Alfredo!
Por cierto, ya que nombre coincide, �no te apellidar�s URDACI?

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 7:48 am ¶
Ictineo wrote:

Yo tambi�n os leo desde hace mucho y de hay mi perpejidad ante un chascarrillo tan f�cil por militante y militante por f�cil… con lo f�cil que es poner a caer de un burro a la pol�tica (?)de la SGAE de protecci�n de sus socios !.

Hubiera imaginado m�s propio (como es lo absolutamente habitual) de esta p�gina un comentario l�cido sobre la inopinada importancia que a la gira de Muguruza se le est� dando en todos los medios. Cuyo, por cierto, proselitismo ideol�gico, y por tanto inter�s general, es para m� tan gratuito -o interesado- como s� volviera a ponerse de moda desbarrar a todas horas y en todo lugar del Celine fascista si una de sus obras fuera elegida para acomodarse al nuevo formato del Un-Dos-Tr�s.
Sin embargo me alegro de que con este comentario me hayas permitido parar y pensar en ello un instante. Y as� volverme a sonrojar porque la educaci�n escol�stica o cient�fica de este pa�s es tan enorme que las conclusiones «…por extensi�n» son tan arbitrarias que se puede colar cualquier cosa con tan precioso termino.
Del comentario y «por extensi�n, se entiende que» Alfredo_MG «entiende» que decir cuatro incongruencias y tener p�blico para ello no s�lo deber�a ser desasistido del apoyo de la (alguna)Administraci�n, sino que deber�a suponer la castraci�n qu�mica obligatoria, o en su defecto abrasi�n quirurjica de las cuerdas vocales, del gal�n. Me alegro.
Con acritud.

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 10:10 am ¶
Muad�Dib wrote:

Jope Alfredo! La verdad q has sido un poco simplista parece no?

Te reconozco q hace mucho q no escucho a esos grupos (a SA nunca le he entendido m�s de dos palabras seguidas de una canci�n), sobre todo despu�s de una canci�n del susodicho Ferm�n q empezaba en Castellano diciendo «dejad en paz a los pueblos ind�genas de Europa» y luego, el resto de la canci�n, todo en Euskera.

No es q comulgue con sus ideas pero mientras no digan o defiendan o hagan hechos como poner coches bomba o quemar banderas y tal, hay q permitirles o nos meteremos en un camino muy peligroso.

Saludos.

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 12:35 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Ahhh, la cl�sica indignaci�n de aquellos a quienes tocan a sus etarras, muy t�pico. Si os molest�is en buscar algunas de las letras de esos encantadores grupos por internet, comprobar�is que algunas de ellas atentan directamente contra los derechos humanos. Si la SGAE defiende a estos grupos y adem�s lo hace con eufemismos indignantes, insultantes y pat�ticos como «manifestaci�n cultural», se ha puesto del lado de los que apoyan en sus actuaciones a los chicos del tiro en la nuca, que al parecer tienen el derecho a expresarse, criaturillas. Ante la poca verg�enza, por llamarlo de manera suave, de la SGAE, mi arbitrario «por extensi�n», que tan s�lo es un exceso ir�nico, parece una pedorreta de ni�o peque�o ante la embestida de un mat�n de discoteca. La evidencia es que la SGAE ha defendido a grupos pro-etarras, y que ETA no se dedica precisamente a las actividades pedag�gicas, salvo que consideremos como tales la ense�anza del manejo de circuitos electr�nicos para producir explosivos. Lo indignante, muchachos, es la actitud de la SGAE ante esta situaci�n, hecha p�blica a trav�s de comunicados y declaraciones de sus directivos. Para el car�cter de esos grupitos y, por supuesto, para ETA, se me ocurren otros calificativos.

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 12:59 pm ¶
Ava wrote:

Alfredo, ante mi suprema ignorancia de la realidad de estos grupos, y para aclarar un poco los t�rminos del debate, te pido que postees aqu� alguna de las letras de esas canciones en las que te basas para dar tu opini�n. Muchas gracias.

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 1:19 pm ¶
Muad�Dib wrote:

Me adhiero a la reivindicaci�n de Ava.

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 1:44 pm ¶
Ictineo wrote:

Son «nuestros» etarras, pues todos sufrimos la ci�naga moral de que sean compatriotas nuestros entusiasmados con el exito de su asesina perseverencia en arruinar nuestras �ntimas convicciones. Por ejemplo, la de que no hay mayor delito que las restricciones a la libertad de expresi�n cuando no es ella misma un delito («…al que parecer tienen el derecho»), -al parecer y al desaparecer-.
Suscribo la m�s que pruedente petici�n de Ava para ilustrar tu postura. Temo que tras su lectura pudiera concluir «por extensi�n» que debo comenzar a aborrecer un sin�mero de hasta ahora intachables cantantes de boleros porque a la luz est� una mayoria de cl�sicos son sexistas, tendenciosos, ultracoservadores y algunos hasta recargan con los m�s bizarros argumentos las armas de la violencia dom�stica.
Escrito con renovada perplejidad por la confirmaci�n de que el texto primigenio no era la mala fortuna de un inoportuno autoaplauso al agudo ingenio del autor.

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 1:48 pm ¶
mekral wrote:

Me parece increible lo que he visto escrito, porque es verdad que Muguruza en su �poca de kortatu y negu gorriak, si fue algui�n pol�mico que estuvo implicado en el entorno abertzale m�s radical pero ahora mismo hay que recordar que el mismo ha dicho repetidas veces que ya no apoya la violencia, que quiere un euskadi indpendiente, pero que no quiere violencia, me parece a mi que eso es un paso importante o ya jamas de los jamases podr� disculparse. Sobre Sociedad Alkoh�lica lo �nico que se es que pon�a en unas letras sobre pegar a un policia, cosa que muchas bandas fuera de euskadi tambi�n han puesto por lo que me parece ridiculo montar todo el pollo por eso. Pero lo de Berry Txarriat ya me parece inaudito por lo que tengo leido sobre ellos sus discos y dem�s ni hacen apolog�a ni dicen que van a matar, que mate eta ni nada, y en las entrevistas no empiezan a decir nada sobre pol�tica asi que ya me parece aberrante que sin hacer nada ya te empiezen a cancelar conciertos.

Y ni soy fan de muguruza porque no me gusta su m�sica ni apoyo la indpendencia porque me parece una sandez pero eso no quita que haya que matizar las cosas.

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 2:41 pm ¶
Jean wrote:

Ah, perfecto, que atajo de gente objetiva y sensible. O sea , que se puede criticar a los tiunfitos por productos comerciales impuestos, a Sabina por intolerante , hip�crita y decadente, a Ramonc�n por oportunista fracasado; pero, Oh, S.A. y Muruguza son expresiones culturales, que no los toquen, por Dios, que nos hacen mucha falta. Venga ya, que pena, de verdad, que no prohiban los conciertos de nadie, pero no desbarreis tanto, que se os ve el plumero. Una cosa es la tolerancia y otra el pasotismo ante «manifestaciones culturales» de esa cala�a.
A Alfredo tambi�n lo habeis toledado mucho, s� se�or, plas, plas, plas. Que pena.

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 4:26 pm ¶
Solid wrote:

Ejem, Alfredo… creo que te has pasado un poco, cuando a�n no conozco las letras de todos los grupos. S�lo te digo que por ejemplo, Sociedad Alkoh�lika no dice nada especialmente proetarra, es m�s, si leiste su comunicado, ver�as que defend�an el derecho de los pueblos a la autodeterminaci�n, pero pon�an el di�logo como la soluci�n, rechazando de plano la violencia (el comunicado entero est� en http://www.rockestatal.com/reportajes/ataque_mediatico_contra_soziedad_alkoholika.htm). Lo poco que o� del Muguruza, al menos que recuerde: una parida que dijo en el Veintegenarios de Albert Pla, me ha hecho verle como un completo payaso y no me preocupo en oirlo. Y bueno, otro ejemplo m�s: Su Ta Gar tambi�n fue perseguido por todo esto, m�s que por otra cosa, porque canta en un idioma que es pol�ticamente perseguido (porque probablemente han sido uno de los �nicos grupos realmente buenos de Espa�a durante mucho tiempo).

Muy acertado el comentario de Ictineo, y tambi�n habr�a que perseguir a m�s de un grupito de OI! con la misma fuerza, �por qu� no? y as� hasta la saciedad, y que nos quedemos oyendo a los defensores del sistema establecido (Sabina el primero [esto va sin iron�as]).

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 4:54 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Esta bella canci�n, �S�ndrome del Norte�, pertenece a Sociedad Alkoh�lica: Siempre que sales de tu casa T� vas todo acojonao Mirando para todos los laos Ese bulto del sobaco es poco Disimulao Al llegar asta el cotxe Dejas las llaves caer �no sea ke halla un bulto raro? Y que te haga volar Como a carrero, como a carrero Ay que jodido es ser «madero» En un lugar donde me consideran Extranjero �porronpompero! Es que la paranoia En tu cabeza es tal Ke krees que todos te kieren Matar, �tu t�o, ten cuidado! No hagas gestos raros Mira que sako el fusko Y te vuelo el craneo �Joder! Con lo bien ke yo estaba, que estaba con mi mama pa’ke co�o me han madao pa’aka �virgen de la macarena! Martxate, vete a Espa�a! No niego sus cualidades art�sticas y la habilidad m�trica, no obstante me preocupa su sutil mensaje. El batasuno Muguruza (militante, presentado a elecciones, firmante del surrealista manifiesto en contra de la detenci�n de aquellos tipos disfrazados que se colaron en el mundial de atletismo de Sevilla, defensor de los presos etarras, admirador de Jarrai, a los que considera una asociaci�n juvenil…) rechaza, al parecer, la violencia etarra. Es, por tanto, un batasuno concienciado, aunque algo racista: �En la colonia del Pa�s Vasco/ tambi�n tenemos a nativos (vascos)/ ahora al servicio/ de la colonia espa�ola�. Como este es un fragmento de una canci�n de hace a�os, suponemos que ser�a un pecado juvenil. En efecto, ahora su sutileza es tal que puede pasar cualquier filtro pol�ticamente correcto e incluso quedar como progresista antiglobalizador en �Afilar las hachas�: �Durante 8.000 a�os en este territorio. el pueblo es el cuerpo y el lenguaje el coraz�n. La base es la tierra, la juventud el apoyo. La �poca de los complejos pas� hace tiempo. Por eso escucha lo que voy a decirte ; soy un nuevo vascoparlante (recuper� mi lengua con posterioridad), m�ximo respeto. Si nosotros tambi�n somos algo, h�blame en euskara. si eres vascoparlante, h�blame en euskara.
Afilar las hachas,
que cada uno de nosotros se convierta en una plaza fuerte para esta fr�gil y vieja lengua. perdamos el retraimiento y los prejuicios. que se reafirme nuestro modo de hablar. adem�s de con los ni�os, ancianos y animales, la utilicemos con todos de la misma manera. que siga viviendo a trav�s de los siglos, que se convierta en el instrumento de trabajo m�s efectivo.
Somos, verano, risa, brigada, temblor, euskara, m�scara, pulsaci�n, armada, asamblea, canci�n, tranquilidad, estrella, estremecimiento, guevara, sahara, granada, atxaga, alava, marcha, granada, chasquido, camino de piedras, terroso, apoyo, reflejo, hija, deshacer, multitud, hilera, planta.
Afilar las hachas,
el euskara fluye suavemente, llegaremos al centro de la ciudad. El euskara fluye suavemente, con la alegr�a del akelarre. el euskara fluye suavemente mediante el latido de los cromlech, cuestionando la cultura de occidente. Somos libres y nuestro objetivo es el trabajo en comunidad. no voy a sentirme extranjero en mi propio pueblo. �Para andar por casa? �Entre ese 30%? nuestro idioma est� vivo en el mundo. El lado salvaje de la vida. Euskara wild side.
Afilar las hachas,
si eres vascoparlante, h�blame en euskara. Afilar las hachas. Somos emoci�n, camino de piedras, latido. somos brigada, euskara, hija. somos asamblea, empuje, temblor. escalofr�o, euskara, palpitaci�n, somos.
Un extracto de una entrevista a Muguruza de cuando la tregua: Una de las cosas que tambi�n ha caracterizado la figura de Ferm�n ha sido que sus letras siempre han tenido un reconocimiento hacia la lucha armada. «S� «–afirma–«. Ojal� nunca hubiera que utilizar la violencia, pero siempre la he defendido cuando no existe ning�n camino m�s. Es el caso del EZLN en M�xico, las FARC en Colombia, el MRTA en Per�, el IRA en Irlanda o ETA aqu�. Ahora nuestra situaci�n ha cambiado y espero que esa respuesta no se vuelva a dar. Debemos buscar las posibilidades para desarrollarnos como pueblo y obtener nuestra relaci�n con los distintos pueblos del estado espa�ol, de Europa o del mundo sin que nadie tenga que recurrir a la violencia». Ahondando en el tema, comenta que «ahora hay una tregua y un mont�n de esperanza de que aqu� no vuelva a haber la situaci�n de virulencia que hemos tenido antes. Tambi�n sabemos que hay un mont�n de intentos de sabotear este nuevo marco que estamos viviendo: declaraciones pol�ticas, apaleamientos, polic�as que simulan kale borroka�». Por su parte, Berri Txarrak dicen que �la polic�a y toda esa mierda son el c�ncer de este puto pueblo�. Por cierto, este grupo ha retirado las letras de su p�gina web, y creo que ni ya se puede acceder a la p�gina, por algo ser�. Para ser sincero, creo que s�lo Muguruza es un grand�simo hijo de Sabino Arana, las otras dos formaciones son s�lo hijas de la incultura y de su soberana estupidez (la idiocia es lo que tiene). Estas son algunas perlas, que conste, hay m�s. Pero eso s�, no se puede protestar ante sus actuaciones. Parece ser que la basura que brota de sus letras y actitudes tenemos que deglutirla sin rechistar. Cada vez me resulta m�s incre�ble la devastaci�n que est� generando en la moral y en la inteligencia la llamada �correcci�n pol�tica�.

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 4:59 pm ¶
JAIME wrote:

Alfredo, creia que en este weblog y en sus integrantes se defendia la libertad de expresion. No, si asi gana el PP luego…

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 5:09 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Creo que tu concepto de libertad de expresi�n es err�neo, Jaime. Si, por ejemplo, Sociedad Alkoh�lica compone una canci�n as�, estoy en mi derecho, merced a la libertad de expresi�n, de criticarla y, dado su contenido, con dureza. Tambi�n puedo manifestar mi deseo de que los miembros de ese grupo se dedicasen a otra cosa y perdieran la capacidad de comunicar esos contenidos a un p�blico, porque, �»tu» libertad de expresi�n abarca a todos? �no?

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 5:37 pm ¶
Ictineo wrote:

Alfredo teniendo el derecho de decir lo que te venga en gana, eso no va a quitar para que sea un barbaridad. Porque quiz�s lo que dice Jaime es que ahora lo pol�ticamente correcto (PP) es ser «muy pol�ticamente incorrecto» -ahy aplaudo la certeza de tus �ltimas palabras- para saltarse el nucleo duro de la �tica con pase de puerta gayola incluida -gran ovaci�n de la presidencia, asentimiento general y s�lo desagrado acostumbrado en los asientos de sol y sombra-.

Por lo dem�s, sinceras gracias por el esfuerzo en proveernos de los significativos ejemplos.Esto es lo que hay, y lo que recordaba. As�, por ejemplo, con 15 a�os me re�a escuchando el sisentido de La Polla Records (que viene a ser ilustrativo de la panfletada actual de Soziedad Alkolika) y por otra parte dudaba que un grupo que le pon�a dos claramente alusivas hachas cruzadas a su anagrama (Hegu Gorriak) fuera honesto con sus «principios» anti-sistema (total promet�an cambiar un sistema por otro, este �ltimo pudiendo gobernarlo Stalin). Total que la ensalada mental de la adolescencia (distinta de la actual pero no mejor) ya hacia su trabajo. As� y todo, que me hubiera hecho a esa edad confiar m�s en las virtudes del sistema social que nos «hemos» dado, �que el Ayuntamiento me prohibiera hacer el hotentote en un cocierto, que todos los medios de comunicaci�n negaran el pal y la sal a un tipo (sin los privilegios del «perdonaloesunrebelde» de Sabina) y as� darle una importancia -y una celebridad malasana- a mi grupo favorito que no ten�a?, o bien que me dejaran escuchar lo que me petara.
La idolicia muere alimentando el conocimiento, no neg�ndolo.

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 6:05 pm ¶
Ictineo wrote:

idolicia: neologismo improvisado para combinar idiocia con �dolo. Osea la enfermdad de creer que una figura m�tica va a contarte las verdades de la vida, …por ejemplo Fermin Muguruza (el arrepentido y dialogante).

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 6:12 pm ¶
Montecristo wrote:

Alfredo, estoy de acuerdo contigo al 100%. Al parecer hay clases y clases de libertad de expresi�n. Los �nicos racistas violentos a los que se puede criticar es a los fascistas y a los nazis. Sin embargo, si son independentistas y de izquierdas ya no se los puede tocar, porque �oh, milagro! de repente sus acciones quedan perfectamente justificadas y sus fines son honorables. Se�ores, seamos coherentes y juzguemos a todos por sus hechos. No seamos mezquinos, por favor. Abajo con los violentos, sean quienes sean.

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 6:22 pm ¶
Scardanelli wrote:

Alfredo, la libertad de expresi�n consiste en que cualquiera pueda decir lo que le venga en gana, siempre y cuando su palabra no est� en realidad encubriendo una acci�n. Es decir, que cuando un atracador dice «dame todo el dinero» dirigi�ndose a un cajero de un banco, dicha expresi�n consiste en realidad en una orden amenazante y, como tal, se trata de una co-acci�n, no de una palabra sin m�s. Por eso el delincuente no podr� apelar a su libertad de expresi�n el d�a que sea juzgado (suponiendo que el atraco que imagino se hubiera producido en un pa�s competente que atrapara alg�n d�a a los sospechosos). En el caso de los grupos abertzales, estos est�n en su derecho de decir lo que les apetezca, por muy idiota o cruel que sea, puesto que el derecho de expresi�n implica el deber de escuchar lo que no gusta o�r. Para que uno pueda hablar libremente, los dem�s deben estar obligados a o�r lo que diga, coincidan o no con sus juicios. En caso contrario, alguien, un soberano que trascender�a por ello el �mbito de opiniones iguales, tendr�a el derecho de determinar tanto lo que puede decir el resto como lo que debe ser o�do por todos. Esto y no otra cosa es la censura, por la que t�, conf�o en que inconscientemente, abogas. No obstante, tienes a tu favor que la apolog�a de terrorismo est� castigada en nuestro pa�s por la ley actual, pero tal «delito de apolog�a» no es sino un eufemismo con que se oculta bajo palabras menos malsonantes la censura ideol�gica o moralista.

El iman que escribi� una horrenda justificaci�n de los malos tratos a las mujeres por razones religiosas es tan culpable, desde el punto de vista de un aut�ntico derecho de libre expresi�n, como el Sade que abogaba por permitir el asesinato indiscriminado y la violaci�n de menores por razones de Estado o como el Marx que alentaba el terrorismo por razones revolucionarias. �Por qu� las justificaciones de Sade y Marx pueden ser le�das por cualquier estudiante adolescente y no las apolog�as del iman o las de Otegi? �Son brutales, inmundas, crueles, est�pidas, indecentes, inmorales, aberrantes, criminales, herejes, sat�nicas o simplemente provocadoras? Tanto da, lo que importa es que las palabras de Sade, que se sepa, no mataron nunca a nadie. �Que ejercieron una funci�n de aliento o de propaganda, fomentando y justificando los cr�menes de otros? Puede, pero entonces hay que castigar a quienes cometieron las acciones delictivas, no a los que las imaginaron. �O acaso uno no es responsable tambi�n de los gu�as que escoge, de las palabras en que decide creer? �Cu�ntos que leyeron a Sade no violaron a ning�n cr�o ni mataron a ning�n inocente en toda su vida? �Cu�ntos ni�os vieron «Superman» sin sentir el irreprimible deseo de lanzarse por la ventana? �Si prohibimos a «Superman» hemos de quemar tambi�n los tebeos de «Superl�pez»? �Merece Jan la hoguera? Pero desde el criterio de moralidad, �qu� distingue a Jan de Muguruza? �No propagan las mismas transgresiones, ya que tanto ir en contra de la ley de la gravedad como oponerse a la ley social es alentar acciones antinaturales?

Sociedad Alkoh�lica deber�a tener todo el derecho del mundo a proclamar las memeces que vomitase su patri�tico cerebrito y, como bien dices, cualquier otro al que esas opiniones le pareciesen inmundas deber�a poder criticarlas. Pero la cuesti�n es que por abrumador que sea el n�mero de cr�ticos y por muy razonadas y convincentes que resulten sus cr�ticas, la oposici�n simplemente declarada nunca ha de poder transformarse en co-acci�n, puesto que la esencia de la libertad de expresi�n consiste en que no se rige por los criterios de raz�n, de persuasi�n, de veracidad o de voluntad, sino por la distinci�n entre palabra y acci�n.

Creo que la cosa es bien sencilla y harto conocida, por eso me asombra m�s que haya que repetirlo a estas alturas y en semejantes foros.

Humildemente,
Scardanelli.

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 7:22 pm ¶
mekral wrote:

Vamos a ver, yo no apoyo ni a Fermin ni a SA m�s que na porque nunca me han interesado la m�sica que han hecho, ya que el rock radikal de este pais es de pena musicalmente hablando, pero recuerdo que estamos en el 2003 y los comentarios de Fermin son de la tregua asi que ha llovido ya, ahora mismo Fermin no apoya la violencia de ETA y lo ha dicho muchas veces, y digo yo que por lo menos eso es plausible que se haya dado cuenta de que la violencia y el asesinato no es el camino, otra cosa yo ni me gusta ni estoy a favor de la independencia del pais vasco, porque me parece una tonteria por muchas causas que mejor no explayarse asi, a lo que iba diciendo que Muguruza si quiere la independencia pero rechaza la violencia, creo yo que se le puede permitir cambiar. Sobre SA puedo decir menos ya que nunca les he prestado mucha antenci�n, pero de Berri Txarriat aun me explico porque se le esta boicotenado cuando en las entrevistas y lo que he escuchado de ellos nunca les he oido a hablar a favor de ETA ni a la violencia. Asi que me parece absurdo que se empiece a boicotear a diestro y siniestro porque si empezamos asin vamos tb por Jabier Muguruza, Lisabo, dut, ruper odorrika, anari, etc, solo porque alguno de ellos apoyen la independencia.

Yo solo quiero exponer que hay que poner los matices que no todo es tan blanco o negro.

�Una preguntilla ALfredo de que disco era la letra de SA?

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 8:27 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

1.- El disco creo que se llama «tiempos oscuros».
2.- Scardanelli, esa relaci�n que haces entre libertad de expresi�n y acci�n creo que es una visi�n parcial de la libertad de expresi�n (valga la libertad de redundancia). La libertad de expresi�n no es el derecho a decir lo que te venga en gana, sino que tiene unos l�mites (honor, intimidad y otros). Esos l�mites est�n relacionados, en el �mbito burocr�tico, con el derecho, y recogidos por tanto en la constituci�n y en las leyes. Por otra, tambi�n creo que existen l�mites «fuera de la burocracia», ya que el sentido com�n o la moral (entendida como moral universal, ya pod�is llamarme ingenuo) pueden actuar como barreras l�citas la libertad de expresi�n. Seg�n la ley, no puede existir una censura previa, pero eso no quiere decir que una vez que emitas p�blicamente tu opini�n puedas decir lo que te venga en gana sin esperar consecuencias en determinadas ocasiones. En cualquier caso no tienes por qu� encubrir una acci�n para que el derecho a la libertad de expresi�n atente contra otros derechos. La libertad de expresi�n est� adem�s muy relacionada con la libertad de prensa y la censura institucional, actualmente el t�rmino se est� ampliando y tergiversando.
3.- A todo esto, el debate sobre la libertad de expresi�n procede del mensaje de JAIME, que cree que ya no se defiende la libertad de expresi�n en esta p�gina. Que yo sepa, no se ha atentado contra la libertad de expresi�n de estos grupos. La suspensi�n de sus conciertos no es un atentado contra la libertad de expresi�n, seg�n cada punto de vista tales suspensiones pueden ser muchas cosas, pero no atentados contra la libertad de expresi�n (que es, repito, otra cosa). Todos esos grupos han publicado discos, han dado conciertos y nadie les ha prohibido nada, que yo sepa.

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 9:30 pm ¶
Solid wrote:

La verdadera censura contra esta gente, si es que se la merecen (bueno s�, seguro que aunque sea musicalmente, se la merece m�s de uno), deben hacerla los propios «fans» o mel�manos en general que van a sus conciertos.

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 10:51 pm ¶
Muad�Dib wrote:

La verdad es q un servidor, en cuanto a «izquierdoso» q es, no puede evitar hacer autocr�tica y ponerse a pensar en grupos q oye (parezo J.Cesar, hablando de m� en 3a persona..).

Por ej., Ska-P y su «Romero el Madero», donde se dice «Romero, el madero se siente atrapao, cuando de repente una dura bota militar, golpea su cara con brutalidad» (por cierto, decir q en este concierto antes dela guerra de Irak le lanzaron una bandera de USA a Josemi y este no quiso quemarla como le ped�a el p�blico).
De La Polla, casi, mejor ni hablar…
De Albert Pl� y las burradas del ventegenarios como «un policia muerto, un policia menos».

Y con estos grupos no se ha montado ning�n esc�ndalo y creo q los q los escuchamos (por lo menos en mi caso) no vamos por ah� necesariamente haciendo el v�ndalo (por poner una palabra suave).

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 11:43 pm ¶
Incognito wrote:

«Tiempos oscuros» es el �ltimo disco de SA, la canci�n mencionada se encuentra en el disco: «Y ese que tanto habla, esta totalmente hueco,ya sabeis que el c�ntaro vacio es el que mas suena», vamos que la labor de documentaci�n ha sido excelente. El disco es de 1993 as� que estos de SA llevan 11 a�itos de feliz apolog�a del terrorismo, y estos se�ores (o como les querais llamar) no estan en la carcel correspondiente, como dice Pablo (Pagina definitiva, noticias musicales)

Y si se les cancelan conciertos no se les esta prohibiendo nada?que cosas.

Posted 24 Ene 2004 at 11:52 pm ¶
ADIERAZPEN ASKATASUNA !!!! wrote:

Esta muy bien esto de opinar de grupos de los q no se ha oido nunca nada ni se conocen sus discos (jajajaja, lo de «tiempos oscuros» rompe toda la argumentacion del tal alfredo, ya q antes de opinar por lo menos te debes informar), xq sino ya me direis como de repente, gracias a ese objetivo medio de comunicacion llamado «La Razon» y a asociones como AVT (q respetan los derechos humanos pero solo para ellos y los que piensen como ellos), pues canciones de hace 10 o mas a�os son consideradas que hacen apologia del terrorismo. La verdad, todos estos paladines de la libertad y la democracia y demas, no se donde estaban entonces que no hicieron nada al respecto. Pero bueno, algun dia vendra Garzon con una lista de grupos musicales ilegalizados. Q recuerdos cuando en las verbenas de ese pueblo castellanoleones donde veraneaba, un monton de gente que vota PP bailaba y cantaba esa cancion filoterrorista denominada «sarri sarri», jejeje. Pero bueno, cosas q pasan, todo el mundo tiene borrones en su pasado.

Posted 25 Ene 2004 at 12:23 am ¶
saian wrote:

A mi personalmente tu art�culo me choca encontrarlo en esta web no por reaccionario o «pro-censura» sino porque su simplismo y falta de perspectiva contrasta y mucho con el tono general de la pagina, ya que �sta destaca por saber leer entre l�neas laactualidad y por su sana (san�sima) mala hostia. En este contexto tu ingenuo panfleto ansoniano canta como un cura en un burdel.Lo de «SGAETA» me parece un juego de palabras admirable. O sea, que ser�a admirable en un parvulario, vaya.
«Todos esos grupos han publicado discos, han dado conciertos y nadie les ha prohibido nada, que yo sepa». Con esto te has lucido, las salas cancelan conciertos por presiones del ayuntamiento o de asociaciones pseudo apol�ticas y no hay prohibici�n?
Bastante me toca los machos el ver al demagogo del Muguruza o a algunos otros yendo de incomprendidos por la vida como para que encima se eche le�a a la hoguera del victimismo.Y lo de meter a Berri Txarrak en el mismo saco ya huele a una cantinela que siempre oigo pero hasta ahora nunca me hab�a cre�do, eso de que «en el Estado espa�ol se persigue al euskera».
Un besito ta…sua SGAEri!!!

Posted 25 Ene 2004 at 8:10 am ¶
otro wrote:

Y quien escucha a cuatro mataos berreando en un idioma incomprensible? El tema es simple y llanamente que si esos «ni�os» quieren cantar, pos que canten, si se limitan a las delicias del caserio, lo idilico de las vacas en los prados y gilipolleces asi, pos adelante, igual que los que cantan lo degraciados que son porque su novia les ha dejao tiraos . . . cada cual que cante o berree lo que quiera.

Otra cuestion es cuando gracias a la SGAE, la publicidad, la polemica o lo que sea, hacemos famosillos a cualquier tipo, es exactamente igual que los especimenes que pululan por las TV traficando con sus aburridas vidas, mientras haya tanto demandante de espectaculo, habra caranza para ofrecer.

volviendo al inicio, lo que me parece sangrante, es que yo cada vez que compro un CD para lo que me salga de las narices «subvencione» via canon a un tipejo que si lo sueltas al monte en bolas, ni Dios seria capaz de descubrir que tipo de animal es

Posted 25 Ene 2004 at 11:23 am ¶
Ictineo wrote:

Alfredo, es evidente (aunque era m�s que apropiado que lo recordaras) que el sentido com�n y la moral han actuado como «barreras» -condiciones de contorno- l�citas para la libertad de expresi�n. De hecho pueden ir por delante o detr�s de la propia legislaci�n, tal que volviendo a Sade, la burgues�a francesa (la �nica letrada) de su tiempo le le�a a escondidas (la moral como buenas maneras) pero fue necesario encerrarle para que callara y ni as�. Por supuesto como viene a decir Scardanelli sus textos alimentaron la imaginaci�n y reflexi�n de muchos -quiz�s una vida sexual sino m�s progenitora s� m�s fantasiosa- y, sin duda, apuntalaron la enfermedad de otros. Tambi�n puede ir por delante, como ocurre en nuestra televisi�n, donde los anuncios -quiz�s porque es la �nica televsi�n con inter�s- son sometidos a una purga que pareciera que la consultor�a que las asesora es Pol Pot (ya sean por sexistas, vejatorios, o porque se mofan con c�ndidez de la monarqu�a). De modo que es un hecho consumado que para influir en esa zona de grises para la coacci�n negativa de la expresi�n no espera uno solo a denunciar hechos que se presuman delito sino que se hace uso de la propia palabra -o capacidad de presi�n, de disponerse- para llamar a la sensatez, la moral y/o el civismo a quien pueda impedir la propagaci�n del mensaje (ya sea el director de una sala de conciertos como el director de un peri�dico). Eso es diario y asumido, y eso has hecho t�. Bravo. De modo que nada extra�o hay en subscribir tu punto 2 y 3, simplemente por que eso es lo que hay. Ahora no te sorprenda que tantos lectores de tu bloc salten como un resorte �-identica estrategia de influencia- apareciendo visceralmente en defensa de, cuando menos, rockeros «que miran para otro lado» cuando no en el pasado eran rockeros «que dicen que algo habr�n hecho», osea en defensa de unos mascachapas cuya catadura no ser�a muy diferente a la de Ramonc�n si en el futuro las instituciones les dan cancha.
Y esto es porque no s�lo se trata ya de mantener de mantener el pa�o blanco de la virginidad moral de nuestras instituciones para poder presentar al mundo un libro de pedidas de baile impoluto, es que se se trata que donde tu aplicas el sentido com�n y la moral para apoyar estas acciones, yo te digo que mi sentido com�n y moral me apunta que por encima de los perjuicios a la dignidad de los ofendidos (la m�s de las veces con alusiones y met�foras patateras) est� el que es absolutamente insensato, inc�vico e inmoral que se genere un problema que no hab�a para alimentar un espectador sensible a punto de votar (con la ventaja a�adida de su certeza -correcta por otra parte- de que todos los rockeros deber�an ir a cavar zanjas al campo). Porque insisto que este problema no lo hab�a: siendo m�s o, al menos, igual de vergonzoso y sangrante que ahora, habiendo conseguido que el «artista» que quer�a comerse un torrao en la pen�nsula tragara con mantener una cara presentable en los medios (que ya le doler�a a Ferm�n el malandr�n); �pero no!, �se trata de Tolerancia 0!. Pues yo digo Tolerancia 0 a la Tolerancia 0. Que no vamos a poder ni respirar -y lo peor es que el momento para que calles uno sus exabruptos lo elegir� otro-.

Feliz Domingo
Ictineo

Posted 25 Ene 2004 at 11:38 am ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

La censura, la prohibici�n y los atentados a la libertad de expresi�n son algo bastante diferente a la cancelaci�n de unos cuantos conciertos. Creo que la presi�n de la ATV o de La Raz�n se ha hecho bajo supuestos perfectamente legales y democr�ticos. En caso de que exista difamaci�n, injurias etc, estos grupos pueden iniciar medidas legales contra esa asociaci�n o contra el diario. No s� por qu� me da en la nariz que no har�n nada parecido. Teniendo en cuenta cual es la situaci�n en el Pa�s Vasco, me parece, por ejemplo, perfectamente leg�timo que una asociaci�n como la de v�ctimas del terrorismo informe a quien tenga que informar sobre el contenido de las canciones de esa gente. La suspensi�n de conciertos pertenece a una decisi�n privada, en el caso de due�os de salas o promotores de conciertos. En cuanto a los Ayuntamientos que suspenden conciertos pagados con dinero municipal o se echan atr�s en la cesi�n del sitio del concierto, creo que dado el contenido y actitud de estos juglares es lo m�nimo. Con respecto al t�tulo del disco, ha sido un fallo, me flagelar� con mi l�tigo de siete puntas ante tama�a falta. ADIERAZPEN, la canci�n puede que tenga esos a�os, pero la cantan en los conciertos hoy d�a. Con casi un millar de muertos, otros tantos de heridos e incontables personas acojonadas por los etarras y sus apoyos institucionales, me parece necesario que se alce la voz tanto contra los que practican y permiten el terror y el asesinato como contra los cuatro pelagatos (de los que estamos hablando)que componen algunas canciones a las que s�lo un est�pido o un hijo del grand�simo Arana pueden re�rle la gracia. La cuesti�n, simplemente, es si las actividades de La Raz�n o la ATV son ilegales en alg�n sentido. Los juglares no los han denunciado (al menos hasta el momento) y, gracias a la libertad de expresi�n, han tenido la oportunidad de manifestar p�blicamente a trav�s de los medios de comunicaci�n su punto de vista sobre el asunto. Seamos ecu�nimes. Si determinado grupo puede sacar un disco con unas canciones como esas, cantarlas en conciertos y manifestar sus opiniones en los medios, la ATV puede tambi�n manifestar su opini�n (es lo que han hecho). Tambi�n creo que no se ha procesado a ninguno de estos m�sicos por apolog�a del terrorismo. SAIA, con respecto al simplismo de mi mensaje, es que…es muy simple: la libertad de expresi�n es para todos, �no? Que las opiniones de la ATV tengan, por llamarlo de manera simple tambi�n, m�s altura moral que las de estos grupos y por ello capacidad para provocar ciertas reacciones comprendo que genere ciertas rabietas en los que sonr�en cuando oyen «S�ndrome del Norte». Pero, insisto, los ataques a la libertad de expresi�n o la existencia de censura se pueden combatir por la v�a judicial. �Cre�is que La Raz�n o la ATV han hecho algo ilegal, algo distinto a lo que hacen esos grupos?

Posted 25 Ene 2004 at 12:13 pm ¶
Hercules Chopsuey wrote:

La censura econ�mica es m�s putrefacta que la gubernamental porque no es considerada como lo que realmente es. Parece que somos muy libres porque nadie «prohibe» tocar a estos grupos, pero se les hace el vac�o para que se extingan. Eso es el puro sistema americano de censura.

Realmente, Alfredo MG, creo que este art�culo est� mal encaminado y muestra un an�lisis poco s�lido de la situaci�n. Respeto las opiniones de LPD porque aunque muchas veces no las comparta son razonadas y totalmente independientes (y por eso me gusta leer la p�gina), pero aqu� pareces una caja de resonancia de «La Raz�n» y los medios de presi�n anti-independentistas, repitiendo datos sobre unas canciones que llevan ah� ONCE a�os y que de pronto llamaron la atenci�n a alguien de estas asociaciones. Ya s� que en fr�o las letras de cualquier grupo musical meten miedo, pero tambi�n si nos ponemos las declaraciones del 90% de los pol�ticos son una muestra de ignorancia o malicia.

Se nota que t� no has escuchado este tipo de m�sica en tu vida o habr�as ofrecido un ejemplo m�s original, o interesante, porque parece que es una especie de convenci�n atacar en las canciones a la polic�a con mayor o menor crudeza desde posturas cuasi-folkl�ricas a la pura militancia. Que si «Mucha polic�a, poca diversi�n», «Han venido a vivir/unos maderos junto a m� (…), suben y bajan, bajan y suben/pero un d�a de estos/subir�n hasta las nubes»… Ni siquiera es algo exclusivamente vasco: unos andaluces coreaban «Puta polic�a» en su primer disco y unos vallecanos so�aban con un polic�a que se ca�a, «el cr�neo se le abr�a/pero nada conten�a».

(No digo nombres de grupos para que los m�s exaltados no se apropien de los ejemplos para su demagogia, pero casi todos son bastante obvios para cualquiera que escuche m�sica «ca�era»).

(Bueno, los digo para la gente muy interesada, pero en desorden y desconcierto y a�adiendo otros que no pintan nada: Eskorbuto, Chenoa, Mam� Ladilla, Reincidentes, MCD, Narco, Distorsi�n, Enrique Iglesias, Ska-P… El que quiera carnaza, que se documente antes.)

Parece que UNA canci�n de la d�cada pasada (que afirmas que «siguen tocando en los conciertos» sin haber estado nunca en uno de ellos) basta para criminalizar a un grupo. (s�, criminalizar. �No es una persecuci�n lo que ha sufrido Soziedad Alkoholika?) Ojal� esa norma se pudiera aplicar a todo el mundo, y alguna asociaci�n y un peri�dico presionara todo el d�a para que a un «radical» que hace a�os critic� la constituci�n se le suspendieran las «actuaciones» que tiene programadas en el Parlamento y en TVE.

Posted 25 Ene 2004 at 4:31 pm ¶
Scardanelli wrote:

Alfredo, te respondo desde la resaca. S�, pues, condescendiente.

Tu r�plica a mi comentario anterior consiste, si no lo he entendido mal, en que la libertad de expresi�n bien entendida precisa de restricciones, tanto legales como «naturales», para evitar que degenere en libertinaje, es decir, en libertad desenfrenada, sin sujecci�n alguna. Yo, en cambio, defiendo que la libertad de expresi�n s�lo tiene sentido como irrestricci�n, pues cualquier reducci�n o acortamiento en ese campo supone ya la censura, la existencia de una autoridad vigilante con el poder de juzgar al resto de juicios, capaz, por tanto, de aprobar o reprobar las opiniones del resto, permitiendo o impidiendo su expresi�n seg�n le venga de gusto a su arbitraria voluntad soberana. Esta concepci�n la juzgas t� simplista, porque opinas que pasa por alto el conflicto con el derecho al honor y a la intimidad, entre otros. Antes de seguir quiero dejar claro que por ahora tan s�lo he definido el derecho negativo a la libre expresi�n, pero que para que �ste sea pleno es necesario tambi�n dotarle de un sentido positivo, es decir, que la expresi�n ha de resultar significativa dentro de un espacio com�n. Dicho esto, paso a comentar tus objeciones.

T� entiendes la libertad como posibilidad de decir cualquier cosa que no se oponga a las leyes y a las buenas costumbres, es decir, como repetici�n de contenidos bienpensantes. Mientras se diga lo que se puede decir, estaremos ejerciendo nuestra libertad. En el momento en que lo que queremos decir choque con lo que no se debe decir, habremos traspasado el umbral del libertinaje. As�, tu libertad de decir equivale a poder decir lo que se puede decir. Pero en tal caso nos encontramos con una ley que, aunque en tanto ley deber�a ser puramente formal, sin privilegiar ning�n contenido, est� en realidad dominada por un contenido particular, sea moral, ideol�gico, religioso o del tipo que sea. Tenemos, pues, la dictadura de un contenido determinado. Esta dictadura, adem�s, es arbitraria, tir�nica, ya que el contenido privilegiado se impone «porque s�», porque est� inscrito en la Naturaleza, o en la idea del Bien, o en la Raz�n Universal,… A partir de un contenido que le es revelado secreta y misteriosamente al legislador, se marcan unos l�mites que no deben ser traspasados so pena de castigar la transgresi�n. T� haces menci�n a una «moral universal», a un contenido v�lido en todos los casos, en todo tiempo y circunstancia. Entendida as�, me parece, efectivamente, una concepci�n harto ingenua, pues la creencia en unas categor�as trascendentes y eternas implica que el creyente ha de poder salirse de la historia y del tiempo para conocerlas. Ahora bien, si por tal cosa entiendes lo que en cada momento y lugar es aceptado como «natural», entonces admito la existencia de un contenido hist�rica y circunstancialmente dominante. Pero la libertad de expresi�n existe precisamente para evitar que esos dogmas establecidos y regentes se impongan e impidan cualquier otro juicio. S�lo cuando puedo decir lo que no debo decir, sin ser reprimido por ello, la libertad de expresi�n es demostrada. Mientras pueda decir lo que puedo decir, lo que la ley permite, o lo que dictan las buenas maneras, la decencia, la religi�n imperante o la ideolog�a que domina en un lugar y tiempo concretos, no hay libertad de expresi�n, sino tan s�lo la expresi�n del estado de cosas predominante. Hay libertad de expresi�n cuando es posible transgredir el status quo. Tu concepci�n, por tanto, me parece la verdaderamente simplista, puesto que entiendes por libertad de expresi�n precisamente su negaci�n, el respeto a los l�mites. Si Muguruza respetara los l�mites del sentido com�n de los no abertzales y la ideolog�a no etarra, entonces �d�nde queda Muguruza? �No desaparece de esta manera para convertirse en un ciudadano m�s? Pues lo que define a Muguruza es precisamente eso, que no quiere decir lo mismo que dice el com�n de los ciudadanos. Mi libertad, pues, es posibilidad de oposici�n a los contenidos regentes, mientras que la tuya es respeto y, por tanto, afirmaci�n de dicho dominio.

Planteas tambi�n el conflicto entre el derecho a la informaci�n y el derecho a la intimidad o privacidad. Pero ese choque no afecta en absoluto a la libertad de expresi�n, ya que �sta es tan s�lo el derecho a la libre expresi�n de opiniones. Una opini�n no es sino un juicio, es decir, declarar que «tal es as�», que «cierta cosa es de cierta manera». El derecho a la informaci�n, en cambio, es derecho al suministro de datos, no libertad para juzgar. Habr�a que elucidar igualmente, pero ahora no es el momento, si el derecho al suministro de datos puede tener o no l�mites, si es castigable, por ejemplo, hacer p�blicos los secretos de Estado. Alguien podr�a alegar en contra de la irrestricci�n del derecho de informaci�n los chivatazos realizados por las redes de espionaje etarras, que pasan informaci�n para que los paramilitares asesinen con mayor eficacia, pero en tal caso no se trata de una publicaci�n desinteresada de datos para permitir el acceso general a la noticia, sino de una operaci�n paramilitar, de una acci�n de guerra o pseudoguerra, que en s� misma es secreta. Libertad de informaci�n significa permiso para hacer p�blica una noticia. El espionaje es clandestino, se mantiene siempre en secreto, por lo que, por definici�n, nunca puede gozar del derecho a la informaci�n. Por si eso fuera poco, no informa para informar, sino en funci�n de una acci�n posterior, pues se supedita a la comisi�n de un asesinato o un secuestro. El terrorista quiere saber para poder matar. En conclusi�n, la libertad de libre expresi�n de las opiniones iguales no consiste en la emisi�n de noticias sino en la manifestaci�n de juicios de id�ntico rango, por lo que no puede haber un juez privilegiado que los trascienda a todos.

Por lo que hace al enfrentamiento entre derecho a la opini�n y derecho al honor, conviene aclarar si el juicio puede verse limitado por el deber de decir la verdad o el de respetar el «buen nombre». La fama es la opini�n com�n acerca de alguien. Dicha opini�n puede ser buena o mala y depende de quien juzgue. As�, Pinochet est� muy bien considerado por cierto sector de la sociedad chilena, mientras que a otra facci�n le parece un personaje maligno. Juzgar que Pinochet es un monstruo asesino es faltarle al honor, pero eso tan s�lo significa traspasar el l�mite impuesto por el juicio de otros ciudadanos. Es, pues, una confrontaci�n de opiniones contrapuestas dentro de un mismo derecho a la libre opini�n, no una confrontaci�n de derechos contrapuestos. Alguien podr�a llegar a opinar que Aznar es un tonto de campeonato o que Muguruza est� hecho todo un papanatas, pero �estar�a traspasando por ello el l�mite de lo que est� permitido decir? Recuerda que tanto en LPD como en sus foros no es extra�o que a menudo se falte al honor de much�simos personajes p�blicos. Claro, podr�as alegar que LPD nunca se equivoca en sus juicios, lo cual es cierto, y que por tanto no estar�a insultando sino describiendo. Pero volvemos a lo mismo. Si tan s�lo se puede manifestar la opini�n que dice verdad, entonces la censura en este caso consistir�a en que la Verdad, o su portavoz, se convierte en la instancia trascendente y vigilante de apelaci�n, en el contenido vinculante. Pero una opini�n est�, por definici�n, m�s all� de la verdad o falsedad, pues en caso contrario no habr�a jam�s igualdad de opiniones sino jerarqu�a de saber. Dentro de la pol�tica s�lo cabe la igualdad y la libertad. Fuera de ese �mbito, por ejemplo en el campo de la Ciencia, el criterio ha de ser la verdad o falsedad, con su imposici�n jer�rquica. Por �ltimo, falta por dilucidar si un insulto es un juicio o esconde algo m�s. La opini�n, como dije antes, se mueve exclusivamente dentro del �mbito de la palabra, pues ese es el �nico criterio por el que se rige, el �nico l�mite que le est� prohibido traspasar. Si se convierte en acci�n, pierde su condici�n de juicio y ya no est� legitimada para apelar a su libertad de manifestaci�n. Insultar a alguien no es simplemente emitir un juicio acerca de otro, sino que encubre una provoc-aci�n, una acci�n violenta que busca la reacci�n del contrario y que supone buscar conscientemente el da�o ajeno. Pero para que se produzca la reacci�n del otro, �ste ha de andar por las cercan�as, pues de otro modo el asalto no se produce. As�, decir que «Aznar es tonto», sea o no verdad, es un juicio mientras que no haya voluntad de provocar la reacci�n del aludido, pero si Aznar pasa un d�a por nuestro lado y le gritamos «��nsar, eres un tonto de campeonato!», con la intenci�n de afectarle, entonces le estamos insultando y, por tanto, actuando, por lo que no podremos apelar a nuestra libertad de expresi�n cuando sus gorilas nos retuerzan el cuello en el suelo.

Humildemente,
Scardanelli.

Posted 25 Ene 2004 at 5:45 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Scardanelli, lo que creo, simplemente, es que determinados excesos en la libertad de expresi�n no tienen porqu� encubrir provocaciones. Esos excesos atentan contra otros derechos. Seg�n tu postura me parece entender que nunca estar�as a favor, por ejemplo, de la ilegalizaci�n de Batasuna, que gracias a los eufemismos se manten�a dentro de unos m�rgenes «no provocativos». En el caso concreto que nos ocupa, el de la SGAE, los grupos proetarras y la reacci�n de la AVT, creo que no ha habido ning�n atentado contra la libertad de expresi�n, salvo que se demostraran coacciones contra los promotores de los conciertos o los due�os de las salas. He defendido que si alguien hace unas letras como las de Sociedad Alkoh�lica, tambi�n debe aceptar que, a trav�s de la labor de la ATV, se pueda llegar a convencer a promotores o due�os de salas de que no permitan actuar a esos grupos. Otra cosa ser�an las coacciones y amenazas. Y por cierto, no entiendo la libertad de expresi�n como libertad de argumentar s�lo al estilo bienpensante, pero s� creo que debe tener l�mites razonables. Asombrarse de algo as� me parece todav�a m�s ingenuo que lo m�o con la moral universal (que ya es tener m�s moral que el Alcoyano), ya que esa autoridad vigilante que mencionas existe desde que naces, en forma de profesores, padres etc. Por eso en uno de los mensajes de arriba (y ya estoy empezando a perderme en este debate, esto no se le hace a uno en domingo) manifestaba que la libertad de expresi�n est� muy relacionada con la libertad de prensa y con la existencia o no de censura, y quiz� sea un t�rmino que necesite redefinirse, ya que procede de una �poca en la que los medios de comunicaci�n no ten�an el peso desmedido, exagerado de ahora.

Posted 25 Ene 2004 at 6:40 pm ¶
Ictineo wrote:

Para ilegalizar la actividad pol�tica de Batasuna, que no la expresi�n p�blica de sus miembros (que ya tendr�a cojones que se ilegalizara), hubo que crear una legislaci�n que atendiera a una incoherencia b�sica del ordenamiento precedente*: que los que act�an procurando su destrucci�n (que es lo que procur� probar el jur�dico) se puedan valer de todos los recursos que dispone para su propia construcci�n. Si teorizar sobre la sustituci�n del estado de cosas va a equipararse en tu pensamiento con actuar positiva y violentamente para conseguirlo acabemos. Pobre Scardanelli, con lo que se lo curra y lo que tiene que oir.
* Que conste que para m� que se identifique una incoherencia no es mejor ni peor motivo para que pemanezca en el ordenamiento jur�dico, sino pensad en el concepto «primero entre pares» (cabe una mayor).

Posted 25 Ene 2004 at 7:17 pm ¶
Saian wrote:

Scardanelli, muy bien dicho

Alfredo lo simplista no es la opini�n. Las opiniones simples est�n muy bien ,lo simplista (para mi) es el an�lisis del que deriva esa opini�n.

Sigues diciendo que no hay censura, para mi si la hay y adem�s de la especie m�s peligrosa, exactamente de la misma especie a la que pertenece en c�non de la SGAE: censura «Alegal». Si son culpables de algun delito, que se les juzgue y procese. Ya lo intent� el entonces teniente coronel Galindo con Muguruza cuando �ste �ltimo le acus� via canci�n de estar implicado en la desaparici�n de media tonelada de cocaina. Fue absuelto por el tribunal supremo. Si no son culpables…la unica ley que deberia regir sus actuacione es la de la oferta y la demanda. Si en tal ciudad hay suficiente demanda de p�blico o alg�n colectivo est� interesado en determinado grupo, no deber�a haber persiones por parte del ayuntamiento a los reponsables de las salas. Es como si yo exigiera el cierre del Bernabeu por que en sus gradas se exhiben insignias y dem�s parafernalia nazi.

Buenas tardes

Posted 25 Ene 2004 at 7:28 pm ¶
Tinet wrote:

Es lamentable que alguien pueda congratularse por la supresi�n de un concierto (de m�sica, no olvidemos) porque el cantante tenga determinadas opiniones pol�ticas.

En Valencia la presi�n ha venido por parte de la AVT i Espa�a2000, partiducho de extrema derecha que organiza manifestaciones contra la inmigraci�n en el barrio de Russafa, que reparte pegatinas con el lema «Limpiemos Valencia» (el mismo que cuelga inpunemente del balc�n de su sede en la Gran V�a) y que organiza «batidas» por las zonas de ambiente de la ciudad cuando la selecci�n espa�ola juega en Valencia.

Este tipo de gente, junto a AVT, se permite presionar al m�s puro estilo mafioso la celebraci�n de un concierto.

Es lo �ltimo que me faltaba por ver: peri�dicos cerrados, partidos pol�ticos ilegalizados, reformas del C�digo Penal de dudosa legalidad, criminalizaci�n de todo lo que huela a euskera, y ahora se cancelan conciertos.

Me encanta.

Cada vez veo m�s necesaria la creaci�n de la Asociaci�n de V�ctimas de la Asociaci�n de V�ctimas del Terrorismo (AVAVT).

Ad�u

Posted 25 Ene 2004 at 7:55 pm ¶
Scardanelli wrote:

Desde mi punto de vista, Alfredo, es perfectamente posible legalizar a un partido como Batasuna y, adem�s, sin tener que reformar ninguna ley. Basta con que se demuestre que dicho partido act�a criminalmente, ayudando a una organizaci�n terrorista a cometer sus atentados. Por lo poco que s� al respecto, creo que en este caso exist�an suficientes indicios para castigar a esa organizaci�n por formar parte de ETA, aunque conservo una peque�a duda porque, si esto era as�, entonces no entiendo por qu� fue necesario aprobar una ley ex profeso, sobre todo porque una ley a la medida de un futuro infractor con nombre y apellidos es una contradicci�n en los t�rminos. Sin embargo, las amenazas y el acoso verbal que han sufrido muchas personas en el Pa�s Vasco procedentes de miembros de Batasuna o, antes, de HB, no son en ning�n caso opiniones, sino acciones ilegales y, por tanto, castigables. No obstante, para prohibir en bloque a toda la organizaci�n a la que estos amenazadores y acosadores pertenec�an, era preciso demostrar antes que esos actos eran una misma cosa con la pertenencia a Batasuna, ya que algunos de sus miembros podr�an haber sido asimismo socios del Atletic y no por ello el club bilba�no merecer�a ser prohibido. De la misma manera que la doctrina nacionalsocialista de Batasuna deber�a quedar siempre al margen del procedimiento penal, a ninguno de esos hinchas energ�menos que exhiben parafernalia nazi en las gradas de los campos de f�tbol se le deber�a condenar por ello mientras no fueran responsables de haber cometido una acci�n punible, como pueda ser insultar, amenazar o golpear a cualquier persona que les parezca desagradable. La ideolog�a, en todos los casos sin excepci�n, debe quedar a salvo, sin ser juzgada por ning�n tribunal, por lo que el cierre de aquella librer�a nazi de Barcelona que ordenaron las autoridades, coaccionadas, me temo, por la presi�n vecinal, tan s�lo ser�a admisible si hubieran existido motivos leg�timos que no tuvieran que ver con la mera propaganda de cierta doctrina racista negadora del exterminio judio.

Defiendes tambi�n que los empresarios y ayuntamientos puedan contratar a quien quieran. S�lo estoy de acuerdo, y con matices, en el caso de los empresarios, no en el de los ayuntamientos, pues �stos forman parte del Estado y tarea ineludible del Estado es la de permitir la expresi�n de cualquier creencia o idea. Pero si, desde tu punto de vista, es l�cita la censura del empresario privado, �por qu� criticas entonces que otra organizaci�n privada como la SGAE luche por los derechos de sus socios? Si hay libertad de iniciativa para unos, no veo porqu� raz�n se la niegas a los otros. De todas formas, �acaso la esfera privada no se rige por las mismas leyes generales que articulan el Estado? �O un empresario puede asesinar impunemente a sus trabajadores porque est�n dentro de su propiedad o quemar sus bosques porque son suyos? Si la ley prohibe la censura, �por qu� se la concedes a los empresarios? A�n as�, aqu� la cuesti�n m�s grave consiste en saber por qu� motivo ciertos empresarios han boicoteado a estos grupos. La conducta de la SGAE es totalmente leg�tima: sus socios lo son precisamente para que su asociaci�n defienda sus intereses estrictamente comerciales. Si alguien perjudica esos intereses, la SGAE est� obligada a actuar en su defensa. Ahora bien, �cu�les son los motivos habituales que mueven a un empresario? Lograr beneficios. �Los lograr�an contratando a estos grupos «proetarras»? S�, puesto que tienen un p�blico dispuesto a gastarse el dinero acudiendo a sus conciertos. �Por qu� entonces el empresario decide en esta ocasi�n no ganar dinero, tir�ndose piedras a su propio tejado? Obviamente, aqu� no ha intervenido la l�gica empresarial, sino alg�n tipo de coacci�n externa que ha ido en contra del normal funcionamiento del mercado. Sospecho, adem�s, que si por medio est� «La Raz�n» y la AVT, detr�s de ellos anda el Ministerio del Interior, con lo que, de ser cierto, el Estado estar�a actuando fuera de la ley. Un boicot no es m�s que una acci�n coactiva, una amenaza de facto, no es ninguna opini�n. Un grupo de presi�n feminista tiene todo el derecho a expresar su disconformidad con un anuncio que consideren machista, pero el Estado, que ha de castigar los actos machistas realizados, ha de defender siempre la libre expresi�n tanto del machismo como del feminismo, impidiendo que una opini�n determinada se transforme en acci�n represiva y vete la manifestaci�n de la opini�n contraria. �Deber�an, por tanto, querellarse los grupos musicales boicoteados contra los fomentadores y los aceptadores del veto? S�, sin duda alguna, puesto que han sido discriminados por motivos ideol�gicos. �Lo har�n? Posiblemente no, pero que no lo hagan no es ning�n argumento a favor de la raz�n del boicot, sino en contra del penoso funcionamiento legal de nuestro pa�s, en que casos as� quedan, por desgracia, sin sanci�n.

Por cierto, uno puede ser todo lo pro-etarra que quiera, estar fan�ticamente a favor de ETA, mientras no sea etarra, mientras no ejecute acciones terroristas. En caso contrario, m�s valdr�a que el Gobierno comenzara desde ya a construir c�rceles por doquier para encerrar a cal y canto a doscientas mil personas, entre hombres, mujeres, ni�os y ancianos pro-asesinos. Se hace un flaco favor a la lucha contra una organizaci�n criminal, cuyo fin es destruir el Derecho haci�ndole caer en contradicciones, si el Estado atacado se salta a la torera sus propios principios. M�s bien, en ese caso los proetarras son aquellos que est�n a favor de estas medidas «de fuerza» ilegales, entre las cuales incluyo el boicot, dirigido desde las cloacas del Estado, a grupos musicales cuyo �nico «delito» ha sido el de reafirmar el sentimiento de «minor�a oprimida» de cierto sector vasco y ayudar a reforzar la creencia de sus simpatizantes de estar embarcados en una «lucha de liberaci�n popular», pues si ser pro-etarra es querer el derrumbe de la ley «espa�ola», eso es justamente lo que logran los pro-boicot, los que niegan el derecho de todos a manifestar sus equivocaciones.

Eso s�, estoy totalmente de acuerdo contigo, Alfredo, en que un domingo no es el mejor d�a para dedicarse a aclarar sutilezas jur�dicas. De hecho, creo que este es el primer domingo de mi vida que me enfrasco en disquisiciones, harto interesantes, desde luego, acerca del Estado de derecho. Bueno, qu� le vamos a hacer, alguna vez ten�a que ser la primera…

Humildemente,
Scardanelli.

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 12:07 am ¶
Toti wrote:

> Muad�Dib a las Enero 24, 2004 11:43 PM:
> De Albert Pl� y las burradas del ventegenarios como «un policia muerto, un policia menos».

Vaya salida de contexto!!!!!!!! Esa canci�n de Pla es ACOJONANTE, y con una letra que da much�simo que pensar, MUCH�SIMO. Y en ning�n caso esa canci�n es apolog�a del terrorismo ni de la violencia, EN NING�N CASO. La pr�xima vez escribe la letra completa, listo.

Opiniones como la tuya s�lo hacen una cosa: manipular la opini�n de gente que no ha escuchado esa canci�n.

A Soziedad Alcoholika deber�an censurarlos por su mediocridad como m�sicos. La censura pol�tica que han recibido ellos y el papanatas de Muguruza les han proporcinado una publicidad estupenda y una coartada perfecta para perseverar en su lloriqueo victimista.

Yo s� quien es Muguruza y Soziedad Alkoholika, s� que m�sica hacen Y YO NO VOY A SUS CONCIERTOS. Nadie me dice si debo o no debo ir. El d�a que se demuestre su conexi�n con actos criminales, entonces me parecer� perfecto que les encierren. Hasta entonces que sigan ellos con sus nefastos discos y sus descerebrados seguidores (espa�oles muchos de ellos, esa naci�n a la que odian, qu� paradoja) sigan pagando por verles.

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 12:56 am ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

No niego, Scardanelli, que la SGAE no pueda defender a sus socios, pero criticar la actitud de esa Sociedad no es un atentado a la libertad de expresi�n como se dijo en algunos mensajes del principio. Evidentemente tienen que defender a sus socios, pero en las declaraciones de los dirigentes de la SGAE no hay referencia alguna a las letras, salvo para comparar las canciones de Muguruza a las de Mocedades. La SGAE defiende a ultranza a sus socios sin matiz alguno, ni tan siquiera un «se�ores, algunas de las letras de estos individuos pueden ser muy ofensivas para algunos sectores por reflejar un punto de vista etc., a�n as�, la libertad de expresi�n…». Nada, se trata de una defensa incondicional que me parece criticable sobre todo por la perversi�n del lenguaje, al emplear la generalizaci�n «manifestaciones culturales» para salir airosos de un asunto que quiz� conllevase, como ya dije, unos matices por simple respeto a muchas personas que sufren el terrorismo en alguna de sus formas. La defensa de la SGAE me parece llena de cinismo. Por supuesto, la existencia de amenazas o presiones en pro de un boicot me parece denunciable, �pero existe en este caso? Imaginemos que uno de esos grupos act�a en Cascajales del P�ramo. La ATV manda un fax (estoy anticuado ya) al peri�dico «La Voz de Cascajales» donde se puede leer informaci�n sobre las letras y actitudes de estos m�sicos. La publican. Finalmente, la sensibilidad sobre el asunto vasco deriva en la suspensi�n del concierto, quiz� se corra la voz hasta los pueblos cercanos, como Supuraciones del Maizal o Cantaritos Rodados. �No pertenece todo al mismo juego mientras no exista un boicot ilegal, violento o con presiones institucionales? Saian, dices que todo debe estar regido por la oferta y la demanda, y que no puede haber presiones para que estos grupos act�en libremente. Precisamente, debido a la libertad de expresi�n, s� que pueden existir manifestaciones en contra de esas actuaciones perfectamente leg�timas. Otra cosa es que el concejal de turno vaya a la sala y diga «nenes, vamos a ver qu� pasa con la actuaci�n que tengo por aqu� la revisi�n del permiso de apertura del local y…» Y con respecto a lo que dices de pedir el cierre del estadio del Mandril, debido a la libertad de expresi�n podr�as pedirlo perfectamente.

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 9:39 am ¶
Minutisa wrote:

Mirad, la aut�ntica merma a la libertad de expresi�n es la que, precisamente, hacen los coleguitas ideol�gicos a sueldo de estos nenes cuando obligan a que los cargos p�blicos (elegidos democr�ticamente, os recuerdo, y representando al pueblo vasco) y much�simas personas en el Pa�s Vasco y m�s all� de �l tengan que llevar escoltas para proteger sus vidas; No os dej�is enga�ar, os la est�n colando doblada. Remit�os a la Declaraci�n Universal de los Derechos Humanos.

Alfredo, estoy contigo.

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 10:09 am ¶
miquel wrote:

Que decepci�n esta p�gina, realmente tienen raz�n los que dicen que con los espa�oles, por muy abiertos y progres que sean simepre estamos igual. odian todo lo que no pueden entender.

LLIBERTAT D’EXPRESSI�! ADIERAZPEN ASKATASUNA!

Ah, en Barcelona se llen� el mi�rcoles y se tuvo que hacer otro concietro de Ferm�n este s�bado que tambi�n se llen�.

Joderos fascistas de AVT, aqu� en BCN ya no sois tan valientes de mandar a vustros amiguitos skins de espa�a2000 porque se iban a llevar la del pulpo.

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 11:22 am ¶
miquel wrote:

y yo te recuerdo a ti Minutisa, que en el pa�s vasco hay 200.000 personas a las que se ha prohibido votar por pensar de una forma «mala», y que si tener la misma ideologia de alguien que mata es delito, ya me direis porque los espa�olistas que teneis la misma que franco, el BVE, el GAL, etc no os ilegalizais y censurais vuestros m�sicos vosotros mismos.

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 11:25 am ¶
Yo mismo wrote:

Estoy «flipando» con toda la «conversaci�n». Me indigna que se de tanta publicidad a grupos de mierda que ni siquieran tienen la m�nima calidad ni para considerar su m�sica mero ruido. Me indigna que alguien pueda comparar siquiera a la AVT con estos hijos de puta del tiro en la nuca con la escusa de hablar de «libertad de expresi�n» (que yo sepa la AVT no ha matado a andie). Me indigna que se hable de falta de libertad de expresi�n de estos pobrecitos subnormales y se mire hacia otro lado cuando se habla de la falta de libertad (y no solo de expresi�n) de de los no nacionalistas en el pais vasco. Me indigna que se critique a Alfredo acusandole de simplista cuando toda la mierda del «asunto vasco» esta basada y construida sobre la mas absoluta simpleza.

En f�n….

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 11:27 am ¶
apu wrote:

Hola.
Soy un fiel seguidor de LPD y suelo compartir casi todas los comentarios que aparecen en esta web. Pero este tema me ha tocado un poco la fibra.
El s�bado fui al concierto de Muguruza en BCN. Reconozco que hace alg�n tiempo que ‘San Ferm�n’ Muguruza me parece un poco pasado y que no le sigo demasiado. Algunas letras de su disco con DUT, ‘Ireki Bateak’, me parec�an ciertamente de gilipollas, que si en vez de poner Euskadi o Navarra pusieran Madrid o Sevilla la pe�a se partir�a la caja. Pero a�n as� me parece que el t�o hace una m�sica bastante potable. Superior a la media. Muchos de los que hablan aqu� no lo han escuchado ‘porque canta en Euskera’ o ‘porque es un etarra’. Pero seguro que leen a Borges (yo tambi�n) y apoy� a la dictadura argentina, escuchan a Neil Young (apoy� durante un tiempo a Reagan) o son seguidores de artistas que en su vida privada fueron unos cabronazos o que pol�ticamente se alejan de lo ‘correcto’. �Es Lou Reed mejor persona que Muguruza? No lo s�, ciertamente, si le pusieramos un micr�fono para hablar de pol�tica dir�a tantas sandeces como el vasco.
Yo escucho (o escuchaba, que nos hacemos mayores)a Kortatu, Negu Gorriak, La polla Records, Tijuana in Blue o EsKorbuto entre otros. Muchas de sus letras no me hac�an ni puta gracia o los consideraba panfletarios, pero me gustaba su m�sica. Y me lo pasaba como un indio en sus conciertos. Privarle a alguien de que se lo pase bien en un concierto de La polla Records (cuyo mensaje a m� no me parece tan ‘censurable’, aunque entiendo que haya gente que le moleste), me parece de c�rcel.
Vamos a ver. Yo con el Muguruza me lo he pasado bien de verdad, aunque en muchas de sus canciones me hayaquedado quieto y en muchas ocasiones muchos payasos que van alconciertose crean que est�n en un mitin. Yo no soy nacionalista ni independentista ni nada de eso. Para m� ir a un conciertocon una bandera catalana o una vasca me parece tan lerdo como presentarte en un concierto de Raphael con una bandera espa�ola. Prohibir sus conciertos porque el chiquito sea un bobo con ideas (no siempre, ojo) del siglo XII me parece tremendo.
�qu� derechos humanos defienden aquellos artistas que dicen que de pol�tica no hablan, que de eso no entienden?, ningunos, seguro.
�los prohibimos?
Siento la inconcreci�n.
Gracias y seguir as�.

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 11:44 am ¶
Yo mismo wrote:

A�ado que yo mismo entiendo que soy un cretino y entiendo que mis opiniones valen lo mismo que la mierda de perro que acabo de pisar. Disculpadme por haceros perder tiempo

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 12:47 pm ¶
Gariraygua Sambl�s DENOK GARA FERMIN wrote:

EUNUCO CUANDO TU TENGAS UN ATOMO DE TALENTO DEL QUE TIENE FERMIN PODRAS INTENTAR EMPA�AR SU IMAGEN. FERMIN MUGURUZA LLEVA DESDE LOS 80 GIRANDO CON SU MUSICA POR TODO EL MUNDO DESDE JAPON A AUSTRALIA, DE IRLANDA A USA, DE PALESTINA A MEXICO. �ASI QUE A QUE COJONES VIENE ESTO AHORA? MIREN LAS CIFRAS DE VENTAS DE SUS DISCOS Y JODANSE. DESDE LA INDEPENDENCIA Y LA AUTOGESTION LO QUE HA CONSEGUIDO FERMIN NO LO HA CONSEGUIDO NADIE. VAYANSE A MAMARLA. DICEN ALGUNOS POR AQUI QUE LAS LETRAS DE FERMIN SON GILIPOLLADAS PUES AHORA MISMO ME VIENE DOS CANCIONES A LA MENTE DE SU DISCO CON DUT QUE VIENEN MUY BIEN AL CASO, EL REGGAE «NIK BADITU SEI» (TENGO SEIS PA LOS FASCISTAS) DEDICA PARA MAMONES COMO USTEDES Y EL PEPINAZO JARCOR «PENSAMENDU BAKARRA» (PENSAMIENTO UNICO) QUE ES LO QUE USTEDES INTENTAN IMPONERNOS. PUEDEN PENSAR Y DECIR LO QUE QUIERAN, PUEDEN PROHIBIR LA MUSICA Y LOS PARTIDOS POLITICOS, PERO ENTONCES COMO MINIMO TENGAN LA DIGNIDAD DE LLAMAR A LAS COSAS POR SU NOMBRE Y EN ESTE CASO ES FASCISMO LA PALABRA QUE ESTAN BUSCANDO.

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 2:47 pm ¶
Solid wrote:

> Muad�Dib a las Enero 24, 2004 11:43 PM:
> De Albert Pl� y las burradas del ventegenarios como «un policia muerto, un policia menos».

Vaya salida de contexto!!!!!!!! Esa canci�n de Pla es ACOJONANTE, y con una letra que da much�simo que pensar, MUCH�SIMO. Y en ning�n caso esa canci�n es apolog�a del terrorismo ni de la violencia, EN NING�N CASO.

Por si acaso te digo Toti, que te referir�s a la canci�n veintegenarios, porque te recuerdo que sac� un disco enterito…

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 3:28 pm ¶
Solid wrote:

Yo pienso como en otro blog, que Gariraygua Sambl�s no es m�s que una caricatura, porque ha de ser inenarrable lo que se debe tener en la mente para decir ciertas cosas y de tal pueril forma.

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 3:37 pm ¶
josep wrote:

pues yo estoy de acuerdo con Gariraygua Sambl�s, y me parece bastante indicativo la cantidad de fascistas por metro cuadrado que hay en espa�a, y se autollaman dem�cratas … as� gana el PP, tocando la flauta del ultranacionalismo espa�ol con todos los dem�s corriendo detr�s

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 3:52 pm ¶
bego wrote:

A os censuradores e demas personajillos…

Os recomiendo una canci�n cantada por Albert Pla y Evaristo, cantante de la polla records, que se llama «el problema vasco», es tan real todo lo que dice…

(esta en un disco de una banda llamada «The Kagas»)

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 3:56 pm ¶
danniel wrote:

TERRIBLE DECECPCI�N ME HE LLEVADO DE LAS PERSONAS QUE ESCRIBEN EN ESTOS FOROS.

Bien claro lo ha dejado Alfredo o Montecristo. Se puede criticar todo menos al entorno etarra. En cuanto alguien habla algo en contra de esa basura humana que es eta y su entorno abertzale saltais todos las «voces de la libertad» cual perros rabiosos al cuello del que habla.

Bien, ah� va una peque�a brizna de libertad de expresi�n: sois todos basura. Habeis demostrado claramente en qu� consiste vuestra libertad de expresi�n. Se os ha calado y se os ha visto el plumero. No me extra�a que a�n siga existiendo eta y su entorno basura. Siempre habr� gentuza como vosotros que les vais a disculpar, defender y justificar.

Dais asco, de verdad.

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 4:08 pm ¶
Minutisa wrote:

Miquel, Sambl�s, Josep y Bego, y cualquier otra persona con curiosidad, os recomiendo much�simo que le�is a Sabino Arana. Encontrar�is numerosos textos en la red. Quiz� sirva de orientaci�n cuando hablamos de nazismo y fascismo.

Salut � tous.
Minu

Daniel=D

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 4:44 pm ¶
Didius wrote:

Alfredo,

a mi lo que me acojona, es que la misma gente que se te ha echado al cuello, apoyar�a sin el menor rubor el cierre de una p�gina neonazi, revisionista o racista. Es m�s, estar�an dispuestos a cerrar la fundaci�n Francisco Franco porque, claro, esa libertad de expresi�n no es lo mismo. Luego hablan de consecuencia y de fascismo…

Felicidades Alfredo, a MI S� ME GUSTA TU BLOG.

Salu2

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 6:32 pm ¶
Beria wrote:

Jode como esta el patio…
Pues yo creo que la cosa es muy simple, incurre el se�or Muguruza en algun delito en el ejercicio legitimo de su profesion? Respuesta: si; OK, al trullo. Respuesta: no; OK, podeis gritar lo que querais pero escribir las letras de los grupos que no se llaman «Siempre asi» no es prerrogativa ni del gobierno, ni de los que colaboramos en este blog ni de la SGAE. Punto pelota.

Muguruza es un artista peculiuar, pero yo creo que censurarale no es la manera de hacer las cosas, y no creo que estar en contra de tal censura sea ser «compa�ero de viaje de Eta», sinceramente, me parece esquizoide todo este asunto.

Si no les gusta que no le contraten, que no compren susu discos ni sus posters, pero de ahi a no dejarle actuar creo que va un trecho.
«Ahhh, la cl�sica indignaci�n de aquellos a quienes tocan a sus etarras, muy t�pico.» Aqui te has pasado Alfredo, hay acusaciones que por un lado conllevan una actitud censuradora, y por otra pueden ofender bastante. Piensalo

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 6:42 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

1.- Miquel, Sambl�s, Bego, Josep…retomemos las lecciones donde las dej�steis. Repetid conmigo, «mi mam� me mima…».
2.- Beria, protestar por las actitudes y letras de un grupo en el ejercicio leg�timo de su profesi�n se puede hacer desde aqu� y desde muchos otros lugares por aquello de la libertad, algo que precisamente se quieren cargar los que est�n por encima de estos juglares con la boina directamente enroscada en el «celebro».
3.- Un momento de recogimiento. Hagamos un ejercicio de memoria. Recordemos donde est�n los muertos, d�nde los heridos, d�nde los aterrorizados y d�nde los exiliados. Recordemos tambi�n qui�n asesina. �nimo.
4.- La existencia de hijos de puta como los de ETA y su entorno es alarmante, pero al menos llevan el cartel de «hijos de puta» en la frente. Son coherentes dentro de su paranoia y cobard�a, o sea, malnacidos de carn�. Pero si hay algo que me asombra es que las v�ctimas potenciales de esos personajes los justifiquen directa o, como se est� haciendo aqu�, indirectamente, mediante la sonrisa ante las cancioncillas de gente que son parte del problema (Muguruza y dem�s). No tengo calificativos para eso, es m�s, no entiendo nada, salvo que la inteligencia, la cultura, el civismo y el sentido com�n son bienes escasos. De otra forma no me explico que se identifique a la defensa de los derechos humanos con el fascismo.

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 7:19 pm ¶
petrus wrote:

Que ambiente m�s exaltado, es impropio de LPD. Beria, estoy de acuerdo, ese se�or no ha cometido ning�n delito, al que le guste, que vaya a verlo, al que no le guste, que no vaya. Todo es publicidad gratuita, que posiblemente no se merece.

Lo que me preocupa es el grado de exaltaci�n que se plantea en ciertos �mbitos. En algunos ambientes la violencia est� a flor de piel, primero verbal y de ah� a otras cosas, no hay ni un mil�metro.

(Personalmente, las letras me de este se�or, me parecen sacadas de un romancero mediaval, no se en que siglo vive, en este no por supuesto).

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 8:01 pm ¶
Avelino wrote:

Para calmar el ambiente, voy a revelaros el rumor que me ha llegado estos d�as por tres personas distintas, y que no se conocen entre s�. Se supone que a su vez cada una de estas personas conoce el rumor gracias a fuentes fiables. Ah� va: ��que nuestro presi en funciones, don Jos� Mar�a Aznar L�pez est� liado con Cayetana Guill�n Cuervo!!! �Alguien m�s ha o�do el rumor?

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 8:08 pm ¶
mayans i farabalans wrote:

A kien ha matado Muguruza??? y a quien ha matado Fraga?

Ka la gente cante o que quiera… eso es libertad de expresion…. Acordaros de IV�, de Boadella, de Xavier Vinader, etc. terrorismoooo, terrorismo y ale todos pedir cierres, etc.

Por cierto, alguien ha pedido el cierre de la Fundaci�n Francisco Franco? no que yo sepa… lo que se pide es que DEVUELVA los archivos del anterior jefe de estado al patrimonio p�blico (no los privados, ein!)

anda que ya os vale!!!

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 8:43 pm ¶
Incognito wrote:

Alfredo, varias cosas, se puede criticar las letras de cualquier grupo, faltar�a mas, pero lo de organizar marchas en frente de donde van a tocar ya me parece un poco diferente, quiz�s un tanto intimidador, y una vez mas digo cualquier grupo, que os veo venir. Por otro lado tienes alguna prueba pausible, un algo, por min�sculo que sea demuestre que estos juglares como tu los llamas tienen a alguien por encima? Yo creo que la decepci�n de la gente viene de ver como sin mas sigues con lo postulado por medios como �la raz�n�, sin un m�nimo de contraste, ni de duda ni nada.

Posted 26 Ene 2004 at 11:21 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

No es que tengan a nadie por encima, sino que algunas de sus letras apoyan indirectamente a ETA, indirectamente porque tienen cuidado de no cometer ning�n delito. La gente se puede manifestar, por supuesto, sobre todo teniendo en cuenta de qu� lado est�n los muertos. �Qu� hay que contrastar? Las letras est�n publicadas, incluso se puede acceder a un buen pu�ado por internet. Lo que defiendo, insisto, es que si ellos pueden, gracias a la libertad de expresi�n, publicar discos con esas letras o tocar en conciertos, la misma libertad de expresi�n puede influir en la suspensi�n de esos conciertos y, por qu� no, en la convocatoria de manifestaciones. La misma libertad de expresi�n que permite que grupos proetarras publiquen discos y hagan declaraciones, ha de posibilitar que las v�ctimas del terrorismo manifiesten a su vez sus puntos de vista sobre este asunto. Si tales puntos de vista derivan en las mencionadas suspensiones hay que respetar la libertad de promotores, due�os de salas o Ayuntamientos. Si promotores o due�os de salas reciben amenazas o los coaccionan, que denuncien. La permisividad con ETA, su entorno y dem�s sat�lites o simpatizantes equivale sencillamente a dejarse matar o a que maten al de al lado.

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 12:22 am ¶
Beria wrote:

Hombre Alfredo, estoy de acuerdo contigo en que hay ciertos contenidos «artisticos» que pueden da�ar la sensibilidad de aquellos que han tenido la desgracia de toparse con los malnacidos etarras, pero las leyes estan para cumplirlas, no para convertirnos en adalides de una especie de nuevo derecho espontaneo que trate de aplicar justicia al margen de lo que hay escrito en los codigos.
Cambiemos la ley si no nos gusta, pero no luchemos por aplicar lo que no esta regulado.

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 10:35 am ¶
emma wrote:

A quien mat� Fraga???

Fraga por ejemplo podria explicar que pas� en Montejurra, de hecho ya lo conto S�enz de Santamaria.. Adem�s de firmar como todos los ministros de Franco las penas de muerte de Puig Antich, txiki y otaegi y los del FRAP, etc…

Ah claro, que si el ‘terrorismo’ es de estado entonces ya no es malo, solo es que se les fue la mano, y adem�s, lo que pas� antes y durante ‘la transici�n’ est� todo olvidado, que total, lo que cuenta es que ahora podeis votar entre los ultraespa�olistas y los espa�olistas a secas… aunque sigan mandando los mismos banqueros de entonces.

Menudos fachas y menuda cara dura!

DENOK GARA FERMIN

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 11:14 am ¶
miquel wrote:

Minutisa, se perfectamente quien era Sabino Arana y las tonterias que decia, pero esto no tiene nada que ver con lo que dice Muguruza (ni los grupos en los que toca ni el partido al que pertenece).

Lo de sabino arana cuando habla de razas es penoso igual que lo que decian lso grandes ‘liberales’ fundadores del nacionalismo espa�ol este tan nonacionalista que se lleva ahora, como Pio Baroja, sobre las colonias, que ademas de racista era justificacion del genocidio y las masacres que hicieron los espa�oles en Cuba y Filipinas.

o sea que menos demagogia

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 11:19 am ¶
Minutisa wrote:

Pues no s�, Miquel, rel�ete, porque en tus mensajes das apoyo abiertamente al nacionalismo vasco radical -y el que no es radical tambi�n, ahora que lo pienso- que, curiosamente, se sustenta ideol�gicamente en el discurso de Sabino Arana.

Por irnos centrando, me da la sensaci�n de que lo que Alfredo planteaba no es m�s que el hecho de que la SGAE admita en su seno a grupos cuyas letras pueden considerarse como promotoras de ideas y actitudes que atentan contra los derechos humanos; quiz�, lo m�s triste de todo, es que, por ejemplo, personas bienpensates como Fernando Savater y muchos otros que, con la ley en la mano y el m�s aplastante sentido com�n,luchan por terminar con la sangr�a de ETA, tengan que compartir foro, presupuestos y decisiones con aqu�llos que, de forma m�s o menos directa apoyan a la gentuza de ETA. Nadie duda de que ETA celebrar�a con champ�n -dudo que lo hagan con cava- la muerte violenta de Fernando, por ejemplo. Os recuerdo que Fernando Savater -pero no s�lo �l- est� obligado de por vida a llevar escolta y a extremar las medidas de autoprotecci�n por ejercer su derecho a la libertad de expresi�n y de pensamiento.

No s� por qu�, exactamente, si se alza la voz en contra del tiro en la nuca uno est� autom�ticamente en contra de los nacionalismos. A ver cu�ndo caemos en la cuenta de que todo es discutible, todo se puede hacer, pero que mientras haya una puta pistola de por medio, la m�s m�nima amenaza, cualquier proceso carece de valor al estar las partes en desigualdad.

Que yo sepa nadie aqu� ha apoyado al GAL, a Fraga o semejantes criaturas; tampoco entiendo ese encasillamiento autom�tico. �ltimamente asisto con pasmo a la «estadosunizaci�n» del pensamiento, es decir, o blanco o negro, a la generalizaci�n, a la mediocridad, a saltarse la declaraci�n universal de los derechos humanos, al consejo general de la ONU o a la propia Constituci�n espa�ola, que, de momento y a falta de instrumentos mejores son las normas e instituciones que garantizan que todos somos iguales ante la ley.

Al final va a resultar que no se piensa lo suficiente. Panda vagos, ya lo dec�a yo.

Salut � tous

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 12:11 pm ¶
Beria wrote:

Es muy cierto lo que dices Minutisa, y pasa en ambos «bandos» (si se puede decir asi sin ofender a nadie).
Como prueba, la reaccion de Alfredo al salir alguien que ha defendido el derecho de Fermin Muguruza a cantar lo que quiera sin incurrir en un delito; entonces el problema es que «a algunos no se les puede tocar a sus etarras». Esta en su derecho de decir lo que quiera, pero llamar etarras o complices de los etarras a aquellos que han hecho reflexiones sobre la libertad de expresion y no sobre la justificacion del terrorismo es algo demasiado serio, es realmente muy ofensivo.

Te digo que tienes razon porque en el debate politico en todos sus niveles hoy en dia se esta perdiendo la capacidad de ver los matices de las cosas, y de ahi surge lo que tu llamas «estadosunizaci�n» del pensamiento.

Un saludo

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 12:41 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Beria, nadie ha aplicado ninguna ley al margen de nada, la libertad de expresi�n, insisto por en�sima vez, es para todos. Emma y Miquel, la aparici�n de Fraga o P�o Baroja en escena no tiene nada que ver con lo que estamos hablando. Vuestros argumentos son equivalentes a defender los toros porque existe el boxeo. Dir�, de acuerdo con Minutisa, que nos centremos. Estamos hablando, recuerdo, sobre el uso de la libertad de expresi�n y, sobre todo, acerca de la moralidad de la actitud de la SGAE en este asunto.

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 12:42 pm ¶
Minutisa wrote:

Por ir afinando: la moralidad de la SGAE en este asunto me parece nula.

No a la violencia, no a la promoci�n de la violencia.

Salut � tous.

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 12:57 pm ¶
Beria wrote:

Pues entonces con mas razon, Alfredo, que se supone que tiene que hacer una organizacion corporativa contra uno de sus miembros, el cual, ademas, no comete ningun delito en el libre ejercicio de su profesion?
No lo entiendo, la verdad.

Con esto quiero decir que para expulsar a alguien, por ejemplo, la SGAE tendra que tener razones de peso que vendran, supongo, estipuladas en algun tipo de estatuto de la organizacion. Ser independentista o escribir letras en el pleno uso del derecho a la libertad de expresion que AUN le reconoce la legislacion espa�ola no debe ser motivo de reprobacion publica, simplemente.

Si tu te quieres manifestar en contra de esos conciertos, nadie te lo impide (con permiso del Delegado del Gobierno de turno), pero supongo que la SGAE necesitara mas razones que las que tu esgrimes para tomar medidas en contra de uno de sus socios.

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 1:03 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

M�s que moral nula hay que hablar de inmoralidad directamente. Claro que corren malos tiempos para la moral, por lo que se ve. Para la l�rica ya no, que ah� est�n esos grades letristas como Muguruza y Sociedad Alkoh�lica, deslumbrantes en sus rimas pero m�s todav�a en su contenido �tico y humanista.

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 1:06 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Por cierto, Beria, yo no he dicho que la SGAE los expulse. Simplemente digo que la actitud de la SGAE es inmoral, perversa, c�nica y est�pida (el director de turno que defiende a estos grupos ma�ana puede volar por los aires mientras sale del Corte Ingl�s). �O qu� opinas t� sobre «S�ndrome del Norte»? Lo digo por aclarar donde estamos cada uno. Adem�s, es posible que unas cuantas de esas excelsas composiciones s� que bordeen el delito. �ticamente, al menos, son abyectas. Lo del delito es ya m�s complicado, puesto que la utilizaci�n del lenguaje puede basarse en adecuados rodeos para evitar la comisi�n de ese delito. Ahora bien, puede que «S�ndrome del Norte» te parezca muy graciosa.

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 1:15 pm ¶
Minutisa wrote:

11. SINDROME DEL NORTE
Siempre que sales de tu casa
t� vas todo acojonao
mirando para todos los laos
ese bulto del sobaco es poco
disimulao

al llegar asta el cotxe
dejas las llaves caer
�no sea ke halla un bulto raro?
y que te haga volar
como a carrero, como a carrero
ay que jodido es ser «madero»
en un lugar donde me consideran
extranjero �porronponpero!

esque la paranoia
en tu cabeza es tal
ke krees que todos te kieren
matar, �tu tio, ten cuidado!
no hagas gestos raros
mira que sako el fusko
y te vuelo el craneo

�Joder! con lo bien ke yo
estaba, que estaba con mi mama
pa’ke co�o me han mandao pa’aka
�virgen de la macarena!
MARTXATE �VETE A ESPA�A!

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 1:29 pm ¶
Beria wrote:

Pues que quieres que te diga, yo nunca hubiera escrito esta cancion ni pienso comprarme el disco, es mas, puedo pensar que bajo mis propios valores un tronco que escribe algo asi deberia estar en la carcel, pero no me pagan para eso Alfredo. Yo no soy legislador.

Con respecto a saber en que lugar estamos cada uno, pues la verdad es que te noto un poco paranoico, la verdad. Ni soy proetarra ni permito a nadie que ni siquiera lo insinue, no se si queda claro…

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 1:45 pm ¶
Minutisa wrote:

Beria, yo dir�a que s� eres legislador, pero que no ejerces tu derecho. Cuando votas -�votas?- lo que haces es elegir qui�n quieres que legisle en tu nombre.

Tibieza, tibieza, tibieza… pecado.

�D�nde est�is todos? �Por qu� no sigue el debate? Podemos hablar, �qu� nos lo impide?

Salut � tous.

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 1:51 pm ¶
Seth wrote:

Esa letra de S.A. fue escrita en una �poca en la que coincidieron varios casos de guardias civiles que hicieron uso de su arma sin motivo justificado por lo que se vino en llamar «s�ndrome del norte» (una especie de paranoia colectiva). Sali� en todos los telediarios y es de p�blico conocimiento. La letra habla de eso, no es apolog�a del terrorismo. Se le podr�a achacar mal gusto por la coyuntura en que se inserta, pero de ah� a la campa�a neonazi que se est� llevando a cabo contra S.A. hay un mundo. Qu� ser� lo siguiente, la quema de libros? Brave New World…

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 1:52 pm ¶
Agarkala wrote:

Yo s�lo os digo que la cosa cambia cuando ves al muerto con la cabeza abierta en vivo y en directo.

Entonces vuelves a la realidad.

Alex

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 2:05 pm ¶
Minutisa wrote:

Pues precisamente por eso, Ag/qarkala, hay que estar en contra de la violencia, de su promoci�n o de su justificaci�n, porque s� nos lo imaginamos… �o hay quien no?

Hay quien no.

�Es l�cito re�rse de quien tiene miedo a morir asesinado? �No han muerto muchos polic�as, guardias civiles, etc. a manos de ETA? �Por qu� est� injustificado su miedo y qu� tiene de risible? �No son personas? Lo que t� mencionas es una de las consecuencias del S�ndrome del Norte, Seth. El S�ndrome del Norte es el miedo a morir asesinado y se traduce tanto en lo que t� dices como en el elevado �ndice de suicidios entre los cuerpos de seguridad en el Pa�s Vasco. No s� d�nde est� la gracia que seguro crispa en forma de sonrisa sard�nica las comisuras de los labios de algunos. Yo no encuentro nada de gracioso en la muerte violenta de nadie, ni en el miedo ni en el dolor.

Salut � tous.

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 2:40 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Beria, si crees que deben estar en la c�rcel puedes manifestarlo gracias a la libertad de expresi�n, que es lo que ha hecho la ATV. Al igual que Minutisa, no entiendo la tibieza al respecto. Seth, el motivo que Sociedad Alkoh�lica tuviese para hacer esa canci�n es una cosa, lo que dice otra. Adem�s, todos sabemos que es el s�ndrome del norte y por qu� se genera. No es m�s que una abyecta canci�n proetarra. Debes revisar tu concepto de nazi, estos grupos no sufren ninguna persecuci�n, s�lo les han suspendido unos conciertos gracias a la labor informativa de la ATV, perfectamente legal, democr�tica y, adem�s, con los derechos humanos de su parte. Te recuerdo que los etarras asesinan a esos «paranoicos maderos».

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 2:52 pm ¶
Gobo wrote:

Soy asturiano, y en Oviedo suspendieron el concierto que Soziedad Alkoholika iba a ofrecernos en una sala PRIVADA como es «La Real», por presiones del Ayuntamiento del PP. Si un s�bado cualquiera os pasais por Oviedo y os decid�s a entrar en esa sala os encontrareis a quincea�eros hasta arriba de pastillas desfasados con musica tecno. Esto lo sabe todo el mundo en Asturias, yo lo he visto con mis propios ojos, pero la sala sigue abriendo y dentro s siguen vendiendo pastillas, pero opr eso no cerramos la sala. Eso s�, viene S.A. y todo a tomar por culo.

Mira, Alfredo, tengo 21 a�os y la discografia enterita de Soziedad Alkoholika, Negu Gorriak, Kortatu, Reincidentes, La Polla, etc�tera, y nunca he agredido a un polic�a, ni lo har� nunca, ni matar� a nadie. Solo se habla de S.A. para esto, pero no de las canciones que tienen contra la violencia de g�nero, el maltrato a los animales, a favor de la ecolog�a, contra el imperialismo… no, eso no vende. solo vende una canci�n de hace diez a�os y que seth explica tan bien.

En fin, seguir� escuchando a S.A. aunque no los pueda ver en directo por gracias a mentes como la tuya.

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 2:57 pm ¶
Minutisa wrote:

Gobo, si tan implicado est�s, dime, �qu� haces t� por los j�venes de los que hablas? �Has dejado de ir a ese sitio, has puesto alguna denuncia, has intentado hablar con ellos o te limitas a codearte en la barra?

�Por qu� esperamos siempre a que los dem�s arreglen las cosas?

Utilizo tus mismos argumentos, Gobo: �escuchar�as a un grupo que promueve la violencia de g�nero o el maltrato a los animales? No creo. �Por qu� escuchas a un grupo que como m�nimo es cruel y hace bromas del sufrimiento? Porque es guay, porque encaja en una est�tica guay que te est�n vendiendo y te has tragao de buen grado. Es una moda m�s, la del guay «alternativo», al final tan descerebrao como cualquier otro descerebrao vocacional.

No eres t�, Gobo, eres una marioneta m�s.

Salut � tous.

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 3:37 pm ¶
Seth wrote:

Viva la democracia! No te gusta un partido? Lo ilegalizas; No te gusta un grupo? Lo boicoteas apelando a los buenos sentimientos del com�n de la gente, que por otro lado no sabe ni lo que est� boicoteando! No te gusta lo que opina tu interlocutor? Le calificas de guay alternativo y descerebrao! T� s� que sabes de democracia Minutisa; los dem�s es que somos marionetas y no damos para m�s…

Pd.- Cuando publiques un libro avisa, que necesito ilustrarme.

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 3:52 pm ¶
Minutisa wrote:

�Lo quieres dedicado?

Cuando dices que la gente no sabe lo que est� boicoteando… yo quiero creer que s� que lo saben. Quiza tienes raz�n, es probable que no lo sepan y ese es el peligro.

Gobo me cae bien, si no fuera as� no le contestar�a. S�lo me gustar�a que reaccionase y que para �l, la violencia y la crueldad y su promoci�n o justificaci�n, vayan dirigidas contra quien sea, no puedan ser admisibles bajo ninguna circunstancia.

No s�, �es mucho pedir?

A las cosas que te hemos comentado directamente a ti, �no tienes nada que decir, Seth? Me gustar�a conocer tu opini�n, sinceramente.

Salut � tous

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 4:10 pm ¶
Seth wrote:

No he contestado a lo que me has preguntado porque la respuesta es bien obvia y sencilla: no tiene gracia que haya gente que viva amenazada, ni que sea asesinada, etc. Pero insist�s en mezclar churras con merinas cuando la respuesta a vuestras inquietudes ya ha sido dada y reiterada l�neas m�s arriba; es delito lo que dicen esas letras? Pues a la c�rcel con ellos. No es delito y, por tanto, est�n amparadas por el derecho a la libre expresi�n? Pues a aguantarse todos. Porque una cosa es el Derecho y otra distinta la �tica y la moral, y esta distinci�n que parece que no todo el mundo tiene clara resulta especialmente importante en el �mbito del Derecho Penal, que se rige por el principio de m�nima intervenci�n y el de tipicidad y no analog�a. O sea, que para que esas letras sean delito debe haberse promulgado de antemano una Ley Org�nica que as� lo establezca. Y si no hay ley, no hay castigo. As� de simple. El que no quiera ir a los conciertos de S.A. que no vaya, pero que no impida que los que no pensamos como ellos podamos ir, porque eso se llama coacci�n, y es tan ileg�tima como lo que se pretende boicotear, porque la coacci�n tampoco forma parte del ordenamiento jur�dico.

Mezclar la moral con la Ley suele dar como resultado engendros muy peligrosos; el Derecho solo debe interponerse en las relaciones sociales cuando constituya el �nico modo de garantizar la convivencia, y este no es el caso.

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 4:47 pm ¶
nomentero wrote:

A ver si lo entiendo….
LA Sgae esta para defender los derechos de los autores (Y recaudar) pero no para todos… los radikales vascos no… no puede salir en su defensa, porque? (proque aceptamos que cuando sale el tema de ETA ya se ha de embestir, mediatica, legal o economicamente)

No se puede sacar el tema de P�o Baroja, etc. y otros pensadores claramante racistas (en aquellos tiempos dime alguien que no lo fuese) pero si se puede sacar siempre, siempre el zumbao de Arana. Que curiosamente estuvo 7 veces encarcelado, porqu�, porquien? Por los que defendian la democracia… de entonces. En cualquier caso
era nazi no? porque el PNV etc, son nazis. Vale!

Bueno, imaginesmo que en ninguna ciudad del Estado se hacen conciertos de estos se�ores, que habremos ganado? Alguien a quien «castigar» por la rabia contenida de los asesinatos de ETA. Pues bueno, quiz� algunos se sientan mejor.

Yo no!

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 4:47 pm ¶
Scardanelli wrote:

Lo �ltimo que escribo (espero) sobre este tema, que cada vez me produce m�s sobresaltos. Si el conocimiento sobre leyes de la gente l�cida del pa�s es el que parece, apaga y v�monos, porque el fanatismo est� ya esperando a la vuelta de la esquina.

La ley permite IMAGINAR la transgresi�n de la ley e incluso hablar de ello, pero no permite jam�s transgredirla de hecho. Es decir, nos permite sentirnos como criminales, pero no serlo.

No hay «v�ctimas generales», sino v�ctimas espec�ficas. La v�ctima de ETA lo es tan s�lo en relaci�n a una acci�n determinada que ha padecido en sus propias carnes, sea asesinato, chantaje, acoso, secuestro, etc. Tiene raz�n tan s�lo EN TANTO V�CTIMA, mientras lo sea y all� donde lo sea, de igual manera que Muguruza la tiene mientras sea v�ctima de un boicot o de la misma forma que el propio Hitler tendr�a derecho a quejarse de un robo, en tanto v�ctima de ese robo concreto, si lo hubiera sufrido. M�s all� de esa acci�n, la opini�n de la v�ctima no tiene ninguna «fuerza moral a�adida». Mientras la AVT se limita a los casos en que sus miembros han sido v�ctimas supuestas o probadas, tiene toda la raz�n del mundo al pedir justicia. Pero en cuanto se salen de ah�, como en este caso, y pretenden dar lecciones morales en general, como si fueran v�ctimas en todos los casos, como si en lugar de ser personas con nombres y apellidos que, en cierta ocasi�n, padecieron el terror, se hubieran transformado en una substancia, «la v�ctima», con unos atributos accidentales que s�lo le advienen con posterioridad, en cuanto abandonan el �nico lugar en el que pueden ser v�ctimas, sus opiniones valen tanto como las de Muguruza. Pero si, adem�s, Muguruza es v�ctima de un acoso, entonces su reclamaci�n de justicia se impone en ese asunto sobre cualquier argumento ajeno a dicho asunto, por mucho que provenga de la AVT o de Alfredo. Por si eso no bastara, recordad que entre las v�ctimas de ETA ha habido alguna vez siniestros personajes de peor cala�a que los miembros de esos grupos musicales, que antes de ser v�ctimas fueron verdugos de otras v�ctimas, por lo que la apelaci�n a «las v�ctimas del terrorismo» para negar el derecho a la libre expresi�n me parece forzosa, inadecuada, demag�gica y fuera de lugar. En el caso del terrorismo, hay que apelar a las v�ctimas del terrorismo. En el caso de la censura, tan s�lo a sus v�ctimas, aunque hayan sido verdugos en otros tiempos y lugares.

Los que defendemos la libertad de expresi�n defendemos precisamente escuchar las opiniones de aquellos que m�s detestamos. Yo odio a los nazis, pero quiero poder leer «Mi lucha». Me repugna ETA, pero s�lo puedo comprender su funcionamiento leyendo a sus ide�logos. No me gustan muchas de las opiniones que se han escrito aqu�, pero a�n me gustar�a menos escucharme s�lo a mi. Sobre todo, Alfredo, no defiendo a los terroristas. Lo que defiendo es que puedan explicar las razones por las que matan. Si a esto le a�adimos que mientras ladran, no muerden, no hay ning�n peligro para las «v�ctimas potenciales» de ser atacadas cuando se desahogan.

Desde tu punto de vista, Alfredo, consistente en «al terrorismo y sus defensores ni agua», no hay ning�n motivo para denunciar la «guerra sucia». Si el individuo que hace apolog�a del terror no merece poder decir en voz alta a favor de qui�n est� porque no es m�s que un indeseable, �entonces por qu� se le debe consentir que vote, que conviva con los que estamos en contra del terrorismo, que lleve a sus hijos al mismo colegio que la gente «normal», en definitiva, que viva? Si uno no es digno de ser escuchado, tampoco merece ser defendido en un tribunal. La mejor manera, pues, de librarnos de sus discursos es call�ndole la boca para siempre sin atender a razones. A lo mejor t� no desear�as llevar las cosas hasta ese l�mite, pero la l�gica de tu argumento conduce, lo quieras o no, a ese desenlace, y justifica los cr�menes de Estado, la suspensi�n de todos los derechos de cierta minor�a arbitrariamente designada, es decir, el terrorismo de Estado. Queriendo atacar al terrorismo, en realidad lo promueves.

Puedo comprender el arrebato sentimentalista, irracional, de los que exig�s la censura de Muguruza, porque hab�is descubierto que si se permite a cualquiera decir lo que piensa es probable que haya que o�r, un d�a u otro, alguna salvajada. Pero la rabia y la indignaci�n que produce en unos las consecuencias del permiso dado para que otros manifiesten sus pensamientos, no es ning�n argumento de peso para obligar a que tales pensamientos permanezcan ocultos. Esto no ser�a m�s que legislar la hipocres�a forzosa. Yo prefiero saber qu� piensan mis enemigos que no creer c�ndidamente que todos son mis amigos porque, dado que tienen prohibido sincerarse conmigo, me sonr�en amablemente y, aunque de continuo me arrean collejas, siempre me aseguran que me quieren mucho. Aunque no sea m�s que porque la libertad de expresi�n constituye una forma de defensa, de saber de qu� pie cojea cada uno, reclamadla para todos.

Humildemente,
Scardanelli.

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 6:06 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Scardanelli, tu conclusi�n de que atacando al terrorismo se promueve y de que promoviendo la libertad de expresi�n de las v�ctimas del terrorismo se acaba en el terrorismo de estado procede de la t�pica buena intenci�n e ingenuidad de la que se aprovechan todos esos malnacidos. Es este caso la colleja a la que te refieres no se da con la mano, sino con una bala de nueve mil�metros. Toda esta cuesti�n es muy sencilla, y la vengo repitiendo «cienes y cienes» de veces. La misma libertad de expresi�n que ampara a esos grupos musicales ampara a la ATV. Si las opiniones libres y democr�ticas de la ATV tienen consecuencias igual de libres y democr�ticas como la suspensi�n de conciertos, hay que aceptarlo. Si alguna suspensi�n proviene de amenazas, que se denuncie. Mientras tanto, las reglas son las mismas para todos. Si ellos ladran, como dices, tambi�n otros pueden ladrarles. Algunos de los que aqu� escriben insisten en que estos grupos no han cometido delito alguno. Bien, tampoco la ATV. Esto en lo que respecta a las leyes. Por otra parte est� el asunto de la �tica, la moral y los derechos humanos, pero veo que a muchos solo les interesa la burocracia, si hay o no delito. Me gustar�a que muchos de los que han escrito anteriormente contestasen por qu� van en el ejercicio de su libertad a un concierto de esta gente conociendo el contenido de sus letras, supongo que canciones como «S�ndrome del Norte» y otras hacen bastante gracia.

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 7:04 pm ¶
Seth wrote:

Una sugerencia: Por qu� no invitas a este foro a alguno de los personajes a los que est�s poniendo a caldo y le das la oportunidad de decir si es proetarra o no? Y no me vengas con que ya lo ha dicho en las letras de sus canciones, que las cosas se pueden interpretar pero un s� o un no lo clarificar�a todo.

Ah, y como quiero salvarme de la quema de herejes, que quede claro que si por mi fuera todos los terroristas estar�an bajo dos metros de tierra.

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 7:58 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Excelente sugerencia, Seth. Ante la imposibilidad de acceder a la p�gina oficial de Berri Txarrak, he mandado «invitaciones» a dos p�ginas que parecen ser las oficiales de Ferm�n Muguruza, a la de Sociedad Alkoh�lica, a la ATV y a Basta Ya. A ver qu� pasa. Y en cuanto a lo que dices de las letras de las canciones, �qu� interpretaci�n haces t� de, sigamos con el ejemplo, «S�ndrome del Norte»?

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 8:56 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Tambi�n he invitado a la SGAE, pero creo que ten�a que haber aderezado todas las invitaciones con alguna promesa de barra libre y canap�s, que pensar que vengan a debatir a una bit�cora…

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 9:05 pm ¶
A-ver-si-te-enteras wrote:

Para el que no se entera:

«LA Sgae esta para defender los derechos de los autores (Y recaudar) pero no para todos… los radikales vascos no… no puede salir en su defensa, porque?»

�O sea que a ti te mola que Fraga defienda al alcalde ese del acoso chechual, no?, un partido como organizaci�n podr� apoyar a sus miembros sea lo que sea aquello que hagan. Pero hay ciertas cosas que no se pueden defender, eso te lo ten�an que haber ense�ado en parbulitos.

«No se puede sacar el tema de P�o Baroja, etc. y otros pensadores claramante racistas (en aquellos tiempos dime alguien que no lo fuese)»

Zola no lo era, por ejemplo, entre otros muchos. Y la imbecilidad compartida no deja de ser imbecilidad.

«Que curiosamente estuvo 7 veces encarcelado, porqu�?»

No fueron 7, fueron 2. Una por injurias a un vecino. La otra por felicitar a Estados Unidos en la Guerra de Cuba.

Se habr� conseguido algo, si. Cuando ha empezado a perseguirse no s�lo a ETA sino al entorno que la alimenta (ideol�gicamente y tambi�n en sentido literal) es precisamente cuando la banda m�s d�bil se ha quedado. Ya llevan no se cuantos meses sin poder pegar un tiro, con lo f�cil que es coger una pistola y ponersela en la mano a un lerdo dispuesto a usarla. As� que a la vista de los resultados, no va mal la cosa.

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 11:07 pm ¶
Scardanelli wrote:

Dije que ya no segu�a la discusi�n, pero como matar�a por una buena pol�mica aqu� me ten�is de nuevo. Es que me vicio cosa mala.

Alfredo, mis intenciones no son buenas y en pol�tica ser� cualquier cosa menos ingenuo. Quiero todo el mal que sea l�cito para los verdugos, pero no puedo aceptar que con la excusa del terrorismo paguen justos por pecadores y que algunos pretend�is autoproclamaros jueces de la Moral con may�sculas porque cr�eis que sufr�s m�s que nadie con el sufrimiento de las v�ctimas. Lo que es ingenuo, o ignorante, ya no lo s�, es creer que las leyes se han de regir por una moral determinada, m�s en concreto por la tuya, en lugar de permitir la expresi�n verbal de todas las morales, de todas las religiones, de todas las ideolog�as. Esto no es ingenuidad bienintencionada y ut�pica, sino exigir que se cumpla la ley que nos rige aqu� y ahora. En cualquier caso, el ingenuo y bienintencionado ser�a el legislador, no yo. Pero pregunto: �por qu� el hecho efectivo de que todos, incluso los inmorales y criminales, puedan «aprovecharse» del derecho es ingenuo? �Acaso porque crees que defender el derecho de Muguruza a cantar lo que quiera equivale a estar de acuerdo con el contenido de sus canciones? Sabes bien que no es as�. �Que los terroristas sacan provecho del Estado de derecho y que si la ley no fuera igual para todos podriamos acabar m�s pronto con ellos mediante «asesinatos selectivos» o discriminados? Ni siquiera desde el punto de vista de la mera eficacia creo que fuera positivo, como ya pudo comprobarse aqu� en su d�a y como se constata a diario en otras partes del planeta.

Me parece tambi�n que en tus �ltimas r�plicas abusas de la demagogia. Si tergiversas mis argumentos puede que acabes por sentirte reconfortado en tu posici�n de integridad moral, pero en cambio no entender�s un carajo de lo que quiero decir. Yo no he dicho nunca que atacar el terrorismo conlleve promoverlo, sino que esto sucede tan s�lo cuando se le ataca de cierta forma: indiscriminadamente, viendo terrorismo donde no lo hay, tomando por terrorismo lo que no es m�s que manifestaci�n art�stica (banal, mediocre y panfletaria, pero m�sica al fin y al cabo). Tambi�n los israel�es tienen vetado todav�a a Wagner, por «filonazi», as� que supongo que a los pa�ses donde Wagner suena libremente ellos los considerar�n como m�nimo «amigos de Hitler» o inocentones. Menos a�n he dicho que defendiendo la libertad de expresi�n de las v�ctimas del terrorismo se acaba en el terrorismo de Estado. Se acaba ah� si se niega la libertad de expresi�n de los terroristas (y aqu� yo no incluyo de ninguna manera a esos grupos musicales que t� crees c�mplices de ETA, pero puedes hacerlo, que el argumento no se resiente por eso). Insisto: �c�mo puede defenderse un sospechoso de la acusaci�n de ser un verdugo si s�lo la supuesta v�ctima puede expresarse? �Eso es un juicio o un fraude?

Lo de la colleja era una analog�a, no una descripci�n un�voca de hechos. Precisamente en el lugar donde iba «colleja» deb�as poner, como bien hiciste, «tiro en la nuca», aunque val�a igualmente «coche bomba», «secuestro»,… Supongo que no ser� necesario indicar el resto de paralelismos, porque ya ves que no es muy complicado captar c�mo funciona el juego de los s�miles.

La cuesti�n que discutimos, yo tambi�n lo creo, es muy sencilla. Pero tu tratamiento sencillo de la cuesti�n no debe ser tan claro, evidente y cierto como piensas, puesto que desencadena esta fenomenal controversia. Si se tratara simplemente, como dices, del libre ejercicio de la libertad de expresi�n por parte de la AVT, no habr�a nada que discutir. Pero hay que ser muy c�ndido, o muy deshonesto, para no distinguir entre la l�cita manifestaci�n de un juicio y la il�cita campa�a de boicot que aqu� se ha producido. �Que lo denuncien, si sospechan que ha habido veto? Eso no es ning�n argumento probatorio, ya que, sea o no denunciado, eso no quita que haya o no un boicot. �Si ETA amenaza a un empresario y �ste no denuncia por miedo a represalias, sacar�as de ah� la conclusi�n de que no existe la amenaza? En el caso de los grupos social-abertzales, si al final no denuncian el acoso ser� por el motivo que sea, pero eso no te da derecho a concluir que «el que calla, otorga» o que «culpabilidad no denunciada, inocencia aceptada».

Dices: «Si las opiniones libres y democr�ticas de la ATV tienen consecuencias igual de libres y democr�ticas como la suspensi�n de conciertos, hay que aceptarlo». Muy bien, lo acepto si t� aceptas esto: «Si las opiniones libres y democr�ticas de Batasuna tienen consecuencias igual de libres y democr�ticas como la suspensi�n de m�tines (de la ATV), hay que aceptarlo». �Est�s de acuerdo en que en los pueblos donde antes gobernaba HB se impidiera la libre expresi�n de los que no comulgaban con su ideario? Sus m�todos, te recuerdo, eran tan democr�ticos como los tuyos: «yo soy aqu� el poder porque me ha votado la mayor�a, a mi no me gust�is, ergo no hay tu t�a». Adem�s, aquellos que se sintieran v�ctimas de un boicot tan s�lo tendr�an que haberlo denunciado. �No lo hicieron? Pues eso es que todo estaba bien y que en el fondo sab�an que los culpables eran ellos.�Lo hicieron pero no se solucion� el problema? Que hubieran insistido, que la verdad al final siempre se abre paso.

Afirmas que la SGAE ha cometido una falta moral y Muguruza un delito. Yo creo m�s bien que aqu� s�lo la AVT, La Raz�n y el Gobierno, entre otros, han delinquido, promoviendo un boicot bien real por motivos ideol�gicos. T� escrib�as anteriormente que estos grupos musicales eran tan espabilados que hab�an sabido eludir el delito para no ser castigados penalmente. Muy bien, pero en eso consiste la inocencia: en eludir el delito. C�mo lo consigas da igual, porque la moral no le importa en absoluto a la ley. El porqu� se obedezca es indiferente mientras se obedezca. Si uno es un inmoral que piensa cometer un asesinato, pero al final da marcha atr�s, por mucho que se descubra en su diario que iba a cometerlo no se le puede acusar legalmente de nada.

Esto, Alfredo, ya me parece sencillamente escalofriante: «veo que a muchos solo les interesa la burocracia, si hay o no delito». Donde dices «burocracia» supongo que quer�as decir «ley», pero da igual, la respuesta es que s�, �qu� m�s nos puede importar? Al menos a mi s�lo me interesa la ley cuando de lo que estoy tratando es de cr�menes y castigos, porque si estuvi�ramos en el campo de la moral hablariamos de pecado y perd�n, de inmoralidad y decencia. �Desde cu�ndo el tribunal que juzga por sospechoso de robo a un tipo moralmente reprobable no ha de tener en cuenta su defensa porque seguro que, dados sus antecedentes, a la fuerza ha de ser culpable? �Y qu� m�s da, a la hora de juzgar si se ha cumplido la ley, que por la mente del supuesto infractor no dejen de desfilar las barbaridades? �Transgredir tu famosa ley moral universal tiene el mismo castigo por parte del Estado que transgredir la ley jur�dica vigente en ese Estado? Es m�s, �el Estado de derecho sanciona alguna transgresi�n moral?

Y me niego a justificar desde donde hablo o a quien apoyo. S�lo faltar�a que tuviera que pedir perd�n por argumentar. No digo esto porque t� me lo hubieras exigido, sino porque, no s� si te has dado cuenta, muchos de los que no est�n de acuerdo con tu an�lisis y tu l�gica lo primero que hacen es correr a desmarcarse de ETA y sus ac�litos para no verse metidos en el mismo saco. Esto significa que en este pa�s hemos conseguido que cualquiera que no haga teatrales demostraciones de indignaci�n contra los atentados y reclame sin pensarlo dos veces el endurecimiento ciego de las medidas de castigo, se vea convertido autom�ticamente, a los ojos de los bienpensantes, en sospechoso de complicidad terrorista, o cuanto menos de ser un blando o un inocent�n, por lo que t�citamente opera el deber del discrepante de dejar bien claro de parte de qui�n est� antes de empezar la argumentaci�n, pidiendo disculpas cada vez que difiere de la pol�tica dominante. Pero yo digo que si dicha pol�tica choca con la legalidad, peor para la pol�tica, no para el que defiende lo que es justo.

Considerar al enemigo como un ser inhumano, despreciable y, por tanto, que no merece ning�n respeto, sino tan s�lo ser exterminado como una rata, es lo que han hecho todos los movimientos fascistas y totalitarios como ETA. Creo que mientras �se sea tu pensamiento respecto a los terroristas no se diferenciar� cualitativamente del de ellos, pues ETA tambi�n podr�a alegar que sufre por sus v�ctimas, que los verdugos no merecen consideraci�n alguna y que todo eso lo dicen desde su Moral incontestable. Apelando a la Moral o a la Eficacia, en lugar de a la ley, se justifica el desamparo de Guant�namo, la indefensi�n jur�dica de los sospechosos de terrorismo durante los primeros d�as de detenci�n, los tribunales ad hoc como la Audiencia Nacional, la dispersi�n de los presos por todo el pa�s, tratados en tal caso como persona jur�dica colectiva en lugar de individual, etc, etc.

Como yo asist� una vez, en mis lejanos a�os mozos, a un concierto de S.A. y he escuchado un par de discos de Muguruza, aunque sin convertirme por ahora en peligroso etarra (bueno, eso no lo sab�is, a lo mejor quien escribe bajo este alias es en realidad Josu Ternera) y a pesar de que ninguno de los dos me gustaron nunca especialmente, creo que puedo contestar tambi�n a tu pregunta: «�por qu� van en el ejercicio de su libertad a un concierto de esta gente conociendo el contenido de sus letras?». Te responde ahora el Scar de veinte a�os: porque la m�sica no estaba del todo mal, porque reivindicaban la lucha por un mundo mejor, porque no eran terroristas ni hab�an cometido ning�n delito, porque sus conciertos eran baratos y sus papeles estaban en regla, porque te lo pasabas muy bien saltando y fumando con los colegas, porque aunque los consideraba, y considero, equivocados en su visi�n del terrorismo de ETA y algunas de sus ideas ya se me antojaban entonces repugnantes, tambi�n me parec�an gente bienintencionada (hoy han descendido hasta la categor�a de idiotas morales en mi particular escala). �Ir�a ahora a un concierto suyo? No, pero porque cada vez me cuesta m�s gastarme el dinero en tipos que no respeto. �Promover�a un boicot contra ellos? Tampoco, como no lo promover�a contra las librer�as y bibliotecas donde se facilita el acceso p�blico las horrorosas justificaciones del Antiguo Testamento, del Cor�n y de pr�cticamente todos los escritores y pensadores que han sido. �Y si se demostrara que una parte de su dinero sirve para financiar atentados? Pedir�a a las autoridades que actuaran legalmente, pero nunca ir�a por el camino torcido, clandestino e ilegal del boicot. Y ahora me toca preguntar a mi: �qui�n eres t� para prohibirnos al resto la m�sica que te desagrada si eso no se atrevi� a hacerlo ni el todopoderoso Mayor Oreja?

Humildemente,
Scardanelli.

Posted 27 Ene 2004 at 11:59 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Scardanelli, en tu ejemplo de la alcald�a de Batasuna o en la extorsi�n del empresario te centras en la literalidad de la ley una vez m�s, dejando a un lado la dimensi�n �tica y algo tan simple como la naturaleza de las amenazas. El empresario vasco no denuncia porque est� aterrorizado. El due�o de una sala no creo que est� aterrorizado, de hecho podr�a expresarse en muchos medios de comunicaci�n y decir lo que ha pasado o lo que opina. L�gicamente, la inmoralidad no es sancionable, pero en esta ocasi�n esa inmoralidad est� relacionada con el asesinato. Si eso produce reacciones de las v�ctimas, y estas reacciones producen la suspensi�n de conciertos no hay que olvidar que la postura de la ATV se encuadra dentro del respeto a los derechos humanos, no as� la de los autores de «S�ndrome del Norte». Yo no he dicho que Muguruza haya cometido un delito, sino que la misma libertad de expresi�n que le ampara, ampara tambi�n a la AVT, y si la AVT consigue convencer mediante una campa�a informativa para que ese tipo no toque sus canciones proetarras me parece fant�stico. Por supuesto, los terroristas no merecen ning�n respeto, son despreciables, pero como seg�n su c�digo gen�tico parece que son seres humanos no merecen el exterminio, aunque s� 30 a�os de c�rcel. La creencia de que por considerar a los terroristas despreciables uno no se diferencia cualitativamente de ellos me parece tan infantil que llega a atentar contra tu propia supervivencia y la de tus seres queridos, Scardanelli, lo de poner la otra mejilla ya es un exceso en cualquier caso, pero esto es de una candidez… Sigamos. La moral no le importa a la ley, pero s� que influye en la convivencia. Pongamos que ese asesino de tu ejemplo, el que se echa atr�s, te hubiera elegido como v�ctima o fuese tu vecino de abajo. Resulta escalofriante tu «�qu� m�s nos puede importar?» al hablar de la dimensi�n �tica, como si �nicamente la ley influyese en la vida social. La ley es s�lo una parte del tejido social, en realidad, y a pesar de lo que parezca por la amplitud de la burocracia, se trata de acuerdos m�nimos (aunque esa apariencia de telara�a gigantesca pueda hacernos creer otra cosa). En este caso, la convivencia est� algo perjudicada por un reguero de muertos, as� que la debilidad en este asunto, como dije en otro mensaje, equivale a dejarse matar. Tambi�n me gustar�a saber cuando he dicho yo que esa maravillosa m�sica deba ser prohibida. Por �ltimo, y para terminar de volverme loco, Scardanelli, �c�mo puedes creer que unas personas tienen ideas repugnantes y a la vez son bienintencionados? Pido disculpas por contestarte con tanto desorden, pero a estas horas… Creo que tu mensaje anterior s� esta lleno de buenas intenciones , y en el asunto de ETA no comprendo la candidez a estas alturas, ya que no hablamos de la posible influencia de una lectura literal de un texto sagrado en una mente poco formada, sino de balas contantes y sonantes, o de bombas que, por ejemplo, han explotado cerca de mi casa. La silenciosa dictadura del buen rollo est� causando estragos.

Posted 28 Ene 2004 at 1:00 am ¶
Gobo wrote:

Minutisa, me4 alegro de caerte bien. Ahora voy a explicarte lo de marioneta y moda y todo eso…

Si un d�a nos cruzamos por la calle no creo que me reconozcas, porque tu ya te has hecho de m� una imagen que no se corresponde con la realidad. Yo no voy de rocker, ni de radikal, ni de punk, ni de nada. Si me gusta ese tipo de m�sica no es precisamente por lo extendida que esta en las ondas, pero tampoco porque sea lo que tu denominas «musica alternativa». No. Escucho esta m�sica porque es la que a mi me gusta, igual que escucho Metallica o Iron Maiden.

�Sab�as que en el Derrame Rock de hace dos a�os S.A. tuvieron 15.000 espectadores y que, en cambio, este a�o no les dejaron tocar? �Que har�as con esas 15.000 personas? �Nos encerrar�as? �Nos reeducar�as? �Te parece normal que quiten de un cartel de las fiestas alavesas a Su Ta Gar y pongan en su lugar a Chenoa?

Tristemente siempre se persigue a los mismos, pero no hablamos de las rancheras o los boleros, ejemplos claros de machismo, sexismo e implicitos malos tratos en algunos casos…

No soy pro-etarra, no soy independentista, no soy abertzale, ni siquiera soy vasco (si es que ello tiene algo que ver), no me robeis el derechoa poder ver a mis grupos en directo, por favor.

Gracias por defenderme, seth.

Posted 28 Ene 2004 at 10:22 am ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Dejemos de andarnos por las ramas, Gobo, �qu� opinas de las letras de «tus grupos»? No en general, sino a las que nos referimos aqu�. Un ejemplo de Su Ta Gar, la canci�n Jo ta Ke:

S�, nac�
en mitad de una guerra,
han transcurrido los a�os
y estamos en las mismas,
no digas jam�s
esto est� terminado,
no pienses jam�s
el camino est� terminado,
yo nunca te dir� cu�l es tu obligaci�n,
escucha las voces de las personas
jo ta ke hasta ganar,
su ta gar
luchando sin parar,
jo ta ke
duro al enemigo,
su ta gar.
S�, nac� en mitad de una guerra,
y la rabia
he tenido como gu�a,
llegar� la hora de la verdad,
lo hecho
tendr�n que pagarlo,
la cabeza por dentro
(la) tengo atada con cadenas,
y la rabia he tenido como compa�era,
no se pueden resolver tantos y tantos da�os,
tendr�n que pagar lo hecho.
Yo nunca te dir� cu�l es tu obligaci�n,
yo hace tiempo que opt�
jo ta ke hasta ganar,
su ta gar
luchando sin parar,
jo ta ke
duro al enemigo,
su ta gar,
sin parar noche y d�a.

Para tu informaci�n, este grupo ha actuado dentro de encuentros de Segi, anteriormente Jarrai. Jo ta ke, por lo que he podido informarme, es el nombre coloquial de una granada de ETA, procedente de la expresi�n coloquial «Jo ta ke, irabazi arte» (sin parar hasta la victoria final). Volvemos a lo mismo, no hay delito, evidentemente, pero pensemos en la dimensi�n �tica, en los derechos humanos y, en este caso concreto, en lo que sucede en el Pa�s Vasco, en las v�ctimas, en los muertos de miedo. Quitar a Su Ta Gar de los escenarios de manera legal y democr�tica es un sano ejercicio. Existe libertad para contratar y «descontratar», lo recuerdo. Por otra parte, Gobo, tienes todo el derecho a ver tocar a tus grupos en directo y sonreir ante canciones como �stas, pero comprende que a otra gente no le haga tanta gracia y est�n en su derecho tambi�n de informar y tomar medidas en el ejercicio de su libertad.

Posted 28 Ene 2004 at 10:58 am ¶
Scardanelli wrote:

No s�lo me centro en la literalidad de la ley, Alfredo, sino tambi�n en su esp�ritu. Y es precisamente ese esp�ritu el que impide mezclar leyes generales, formales, universales, para todos los ciudadanos, con moral individual, privada.

Que las presiones il�citas tengan �xito por causa del terror a perder la vida o del miedo a perder un negocio, no quita que las presiones sean il�citas en ambos casos.

Insisto: las v�ctimas del terrorismo son v�ctimas DE ETA, no DE MUGURUZA. Y las consecuencias de las que hablas son las que critico: mi derecho a expresarme no significa que tenga derecho a impedir la expresi�n del vecino, por muy «democr�tica o moralmente» que se haga. El Estado debe intervenir en este caso para impedir el boicot. El grav�simo problema es que es precisamente el Estado el que lo ha promovido.

En Espa�a no nos regimos por los «Derechos humanos» as�, en abstracto, sino por las leyes vigentes. Si algunas de esas leyes tienen en cuenta esos derechos, da igual, puesto que tienen valor en cuanto leyes. Adem�s, no hay el derecho de los hombres a callar la boca de los hombres, porque �qui�nes har�an el papel de hombres calladores y qui�n el de los callados?

Si no hay delito, como t� mismo reconoces, Muguruza es libre para decir lo que le plazca, ofenda a quien ofenda. Tus apelaciones a instancias trascendentes no pueden tener ning�n efecto sobre sus cuerdas vocales.

La AVT no se ha limitado a «informar». Creer eso es de una ingenuidad alarmante.

Yo jam�s he puesto la otra mejilla y menos lo har�a ante un terrorista que viene a matarme. No me confundas con Ernest Lluch. Si pudiera cargarme en leg�tima defensa al que viene a por mi, lo har�a sin remordimiento alguno. Pero si la policia lo atrapara, exigiria que respetaran sus derechos. Eso no es candidez, Alfredo, es justicia. Y lo repito: tu fanatismo en este tema es el mismo que el de ellos, aunque cambie el contenido.

Si hubiera sospechas de que mi vecino quisiera matarme, pedir�a protecci�n o me har�a con un arma, pero mientras no pasaran de ser sospechas, el tipo no ser�a culpable. �Recuerdas la presunci�n de inocencia? Significa que mientras no se demuestre que ese vecino no intente atacarme, la ley no puede actuar. �T� qu� har�as? �Encerrar a todos los vecinos de los que tienes sospechas de inmoralidad? �O algo peor? �Candidez es negarse a ir por la vida en plan Cobra? �El concejal amenazado por ETA ha de cargarse a aquellos de los que sospeche o tan s�lo puede pedir la protecci�n de un escolta? �Son entonces unos c�ndidos todos los concejales amenazados?

�Debilidad? �D�nde he demostrado debilidad con los asesinos? T�, en cambio, te muestras muy d�bil con los boicoteadores. O estamos fuertemente en contra todos los acosos o seremos unos d�biles con una de las partes. Yo pido la misma dureza con todos.

T�, es verdad, no has hablado de prohibici�n de iure, sino de facto. Por eso lo critico. Porque no defiendo los hechos consumados.

Uno puede tener buenas intenciones y esas intenciones tener p�simas consecuencias. El camino al infierno est� empedrado de buenas intenciones. Por eso es compatible sentir repugnancia por las ideas que otro considera buenas. Por eso me repugna la idea que defiendes, pero al mismo tiempo creo que lo haces sin mala fe.

Continuas obcecado, por lo que veo, en mezclar balas y cad�veres con m�sica.

Por supuesto, no defiendo la dictadura del buen rollo, pero tampoco tu dictadura del mal rollo. En realidad, no defiendo ninguna dictadura.

Humildemente,
Scardanelli.

Posted 28 Ene 2004 at 1:08 pm ¶
Minutisa wrote:

Esto cada vez se enrevesa m�s. Mirad, con la mano en el coraz�n os digo que creo que aplic�is diferentes raseros a la hora de medir, por ejemplo, cuando habl�is de ley, moral y �tica.

De todos son conocidos los casos en que los jueces se «equivocan» al aplicar la ley. Sin ir m�s lejos, todos nos escandalizamos cuando sabemos de un juez que, por ejemplo, absuelve a un violador o le impone una pena rid�cula en comparaci�n con el delito que ha cometido. Estrictamente hablando, la decisi�n del juez se ajusta a la ley. Sin embargo todos ponemos el grito en el cielo porque nos parece un esc�ndalo moral o �tico; las asociaciones en defensa de la mujer act�an, se hacen comentarios en prensa y se opina. A nadie le parece mal que se opine en una situaci�n as�. Y es, precisamente ese clamor c�vico -qu� bonita palabra- el que hace que jueces as� se la cojan con papel de fumar a la hora de dictar sentencia y no se encuentren nada c�modos en lo sucesivo. Todos nos partir�amos si el se�or juez se llevara unos tomatazos por imb�cil. La ley es una cosa, la conciencia c�vica, la moral, la �tica, son otras.

La ATV, Afredo, yo misma, quien sea, est� pues en su perfecto derecho de boicotear, los conciertos de estos se�ores que, con las letras en la mano, hacen mofa del sufrimiento ajeno. La ley los proteje, pero eso no obsta para que la conciencia c�vica los condene. Ojal�, como el se�or juez, se llevaran unos buenos tomatazos.

Y aqu� es donde entra el doble rasero. �Por qu� es l�cito poner a caer de un burro al se�or juez y no es l�cito poner a caer de un burro a estos se�ores? El se�or juez no es el violador, pero ha omitido su deber �tico, moral, c�vico. Estos se�ores no son terroristas, pero alientan, alimentan y promueven actitudes que atentan contra el civismo, la convivencia y los derechos humanos.

Reley�ndoos, he hecho un peque�o recuento particular. Resulta que, parad�jicamente, aqu�llos de vosotros que sosten�is una postura de laissez faire (�se escribe as�?) m�s acentuada hab�is hecho comentarios en los que dej�is muy clara vuestra medicina para los etarras («dos metros bajo tierra», etc.). Ni yo ni Alfredo nos hemos referido a ETA ni a su entorno en ning�n momento de semejante manera.

Salut � tous

Posted 28 Ene 2004 at 1:44 pm ¶
Scardanelli wrote:

«La ATV, Afredo, yo misma, quien sea, est� pues en su perfecto derecho de boicotear, los conciertos de estos se�ores que, con las letras en la mano, hacen mofa del sufrimiento ajeno. La ley los proteje, pero eso no obsta para que la conciencia c�vica los condene. Ojal�, como el se�or juez, se llevaran unos buenos tomatazos».

Minutisa, si esto no es la definici�n de fascismo, de saltarse la mediatez de la ley por la inmediatez de la voluntad, de la «acci�n directa», que baje Dios y lo vea. Da igual que se trate de tomatazos, de porrazos o de bombazos.

Posted 28 Ene 2004 at 2:31 pm ¶
Minutisa wrote:

Gobo, es seguro que no te reconocer�a. Dec�a que me caes bien porque has sabido ver un problema -el de los pastilleros- donde mucha gente no ver�a m�s que una forma de ocio.

Pienso que tanto los grupos de los que estamos hablando como la propia Chenoa tienen algo en com�n absolutamente deleznable y es un mensaje directamente encaminado a la consecuci�n del electroencefalograma plano autoinfligido del oyente. Naturalmente, hay un abismo entre los dos. Hasta donde puedo saber, Chenoa no fomenta la violencia, el sufrimiento y no DESinforma, simplemente, es banal.

En cuanto a boleros y dem�s, no es �se el asunto que se trata. Ser�a interesante tratarlo.

Tampoco encuentro l�cito defender a alguien porque parte de sus ideas sean acertadas. Es decir, entre perlas de la defensa de los derechos humanos y de los animales nos cuelan una mierda pinchada en un palo y tenemos que tragar: no se�or. Es como decir que Hitler era un t�o estupendo porque adoraba a los perros o era vegetariano.

S�lut mes amis

Posted 28 Ene 2004 at 2:36 pm ¶
Minutisa wrote:

Un momento, ejercer el derecho a la libertad de expresi�n, a expresar indignaci�n ante un atropello a la Declaraci�n Universal de los Derechos Humanos, �es nazismo?

Scardanelli, no, no son lo mismo tomatazos o tartazos que porrazos, bombas o tiros.

Pi�nsalo bien, por favor.

Salud mental, amigo m�o.

Posted 28 Ene 2004 at 2:43 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Scardanelli, sinceramente, est�s obcecado con la letra de la ley, con sus comas, sus puntos y aparte y sus ep�grafes, es decir, hablas como un bur�crata, fundes continente y contenido. Identificas siempre a la moral con la moral individual, como algo �ntimo. Hay tambi�n una moral «general», de la que emana, por ejemplo, la declaraci�n universal de los derechos humanos, puesto que, como dije en otro mensaje m�s arriba, no s�lo la ley regula las relaciones humanas, la ley es un acuerdo com�n. De hecho, ce�irnos literalmente a la ley derivar�a en injusticias constantes, como cuando en los aeropuertos hacen ese tipo de huelgas en las que respetan escrupulosamente todos los horarios. Creo que «andas de espaldas» en este asunto, es decir, vas de los efectos a las causas. La ley no provoca el acuerdo, o la vida pac�fica, o el civismo, o la �tica. Al contrario, la ley es posible cuando existen otras cosas, otros pilares. �tica, civismo, sentido com�n, capacidad de empat�a y solidaridad etc. son cuestiones que, aunque esto te escandalice, est�n por encima de la ley que, repito, es un acuerdo de objetivos m�nimos y b�sicos, a modo de tablas de mandamientos. Que la ley impida que se mande al trullo a Ferm�n Muguruza no significa que este personaje no se est� burlando del sufrimiento ajeno, abrazando la causa etarra mediante cobardes eufemismos y, es suma, apoyando en la medida de sus posibilidades un r�gimen basado en el terror, el asesinato, el secuestro y la extorsi�n. Con tu obcecaci�n, niegas la posibilidad de defensa de las v�ctimas directas de ETA y de las potenciales (que somos casi todos). No s�lo hay que defenderse del pistolero, que estar� escondido por ah�, sino tambi�n del malnacido que viene con cancioncitas de la peor cala�a a re�rse de los asesinados y los aterrorizados. Aclarar� ahora, que de ning�n modo estoy diciendo que haya que saltarse la ley, sino que los caminos para combatir el terror no s�lo han de ce�irse a lo judicial, de hecho, la ley, por su naturaleza de acuerdo, suele ir m�s lenta que las demandas de la sociedad. Y te pondr� un ejemplo claro antes de que me llames fan�tico de nuevo. Imagina que tu cruel vecino tiene un perro y lo muele a palos hasta matarlo, delante de ti. Lo denuncias. Por ley tendr� una multa. El vecino maltratador se compra otro perro, un gracioso Yorshire, y repite la operaci�n: lo muele a palos en la calle delante de ti hasta matarlo. Lo vuelves a denunciar. Otra multa. �No crees que ser�a absolutamente l�cito que hablases con los due�os de la tienda de ultramarinos, con el peluquero y con el due�o del bar de la esquina -amantes de los perros como t�- para que no atendieran a este hombre? Adapta este ejemplo a lo que estamos hablando y te encontrar�s con muchas posibilidades l�citas de combatir a los etarras y sat�lites. Para colmo, y tan obsesionado que est�s con la letra de la ley entendida de forma literal y cerrada, tampoco hay delito en esas suspensiones. De hecho, hasta el momento, espero no equivocarme, ni tan siquiera ha habido una denuncia v�a judicial o una declaraci�n p�blica de alg�n promotor o due�o de sala. Al menos las he buscado y no las he encontrado, corregidme en caso de que encontr�is algo en ese sentido.

Fan�ticos saludos.

Posted 28 Ene 2004 at 4:54 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Y, Scardanelli, recuerda algo tan sencillo como que la ley es fundamentalmente punitiva. Dicho de otro modo, su funci�n es castigar. Para que la ley funcione tiene que haber delito. Eso no quiere decir que no se puedan poner las bases para evitar ciertas actitudes inc�vicas con otros medios perfectamente l�citos. Seg�n tu modo de discurrir, parece que tenemos que abrirle la puerta al ladr�n y dejarle pasar, para llamar a la polic�a justo en cuanto se lleve el televisor que amablemente habremos puesto en su furgoneta.

Posted 28 Ene 2004 at 5:28 pm ¶
Scardanelli wrote:

Minutisa (y tambi�n Alfredo), �sabes lo que es un boicot? Seg�n mi diccionario es privar a alguien de toda relaci�n social o comercial para perjudicarle y OBLIGARLE A ceder en lo que de ella se exige.

O sea, que es coaccionar. Otra vez seg�n el diccionario, coacci�n es LA VIOLENCIA que se hace a una persona para obligarla a que diga o ejecute alguna cosa.

Ahora te pregunto: �c�mo va a ser posible un derecho al boicot? �Ignoras que el Estado tiene el monopolio de la violencia leg�tima? El �nico, por tanto, que puede coaccionar LEG�TIMAMENTE a alguien es el Estado, y siempre seg�n el Derecho (no la Burocracia ni la Moral). Como en este affaire el Derecho ha dicho que no hay caso, no hay tampoco lugar para la coacci�n.

Si t� tuvieras «derecho al boicot», �lo tendr�an tambi�n los independentistas que boicotearon las conferencias de Fernando Savater en algunas universidades catalanas? �O tan s�lo estaban, como la AVT, «informando»? Si esos grupos, que tienen bastante influencia en algunas facultades, convencen al rector de turno de que las ideas de «Basta ya» son nocivas, �deber�a la Universidad ejercer su democr�tico «derecho al boicot», su «libertad de acallar las voces discrepantes»?

Ahora bien, quiz�s t� confundes el poder que eres capaz de otorgarte a ti misma con el «derecho». Pero derecho es precisamente el poder que te concede otro, el Estado, no el que uno mismo se autoconcede.

Mientras no hablemos con mayor propiedad, no podremos hacer luz en esta disputa.

Y Minutisa, puede que est� loco, nunca he dicho lo contrario (tampoco he dicho que quiera curarme), pero tus argumentos son propios de un fan�tico iluminado. Puesto que tienes la Verdad Moral, la Declaraci�n de los Derechos humanos (f�jate qu� cosas. Otro d�a hablamos del iusnaturalismo), la tabla de Dios revelada a Minutisa, los que discrepamos racionalmente estamos como un cencerro. Pues mira, sigo pensando que un tomatazo y un tiro en la nuca son ambos formas de violencia, de tomarse la justicia por su mano, por mucho que tu tomatazo sea «�tico». Cuantitativamente son distintos y tienen distintos efectos, pero en esencia son lo mismo: violencia justiciera a los Charles Bronson. Te hago la misma recomendaci�n: pi�nsalo t� tambi�n. Pon en duda, aunque sea m�nimamente, tu derecho moral a hacer lo que te plazca avasallando a los dem�s.

El moralismo puede terminar perfectamente, como puede comprobarse viendo adonde conduce el desarrollo l�gico de vuestros argumentos, en fascismo de la peor especie.

Y otra cosa: no me defend�is de los inocentes.

Humilde(y preocupada)mente,
Scardanelli.

Posted 28 Ene 2004 at 5:43 pm ¶
Scardanelli wrote:

Exacto, Alfredo, la ley que permite la libre expresi�n de todas las opiniones, concede ese derecho porque tiene EL DEBER DE CASTIGAR a quienes, como la AVT, impidan el buen funcionamiento de esa ley.

El incivismo s�lo puede combatirse con civismo, es decir, voluntariamente, con persuasi�n, no con coacci�n ni boicoteando al inc�vico. Pero en el caso de Muguruza no ha habido ni delito ni incivismo de ning�n tipo.

�Cu�ndo he hablado yo de facilitar las cosas a los ladrones? Continu�is sorprendi�ndome.

Posted 28 Ene 2004 at 5:52 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Scardanelli, en este caso tu problema parte de la generalizaci�n. Para ti existe la violencia sin matices. Para ti un boicot (si en este caso se pudiese hablar de boicot) ejercido por las v�ctimas de ETA para evitar conciertos de grupos proetarras es equivalente a la violencia de una bala en la nuca (literalmente dices «Pues mira, sigo pensando que un tomatazo y un tiro en la nuca son ambos formas de violencia, de tomarse la justicia por su mano, por mucho que tu tomatazo sea «�tico»). M�s bien el iluminado eres t�, un Mois�s obsesionado con las tablas de los mandamientos, un sacerdote de la regla escrita y sagrada. Tambi�n, al igual que te pasa con la ley, te tomas el lenguaje, las palabras, como algo literal, prescindiendo de matices, posibilidades y significados. Tu concepto de «violencia» lo demuestra, una iluminaci�n «generalista» v�a RAE. �Y qui�n dice que no se puede coaccionar leg�timamente? Ah� est�n los boicots propuestos por algunas organizaciones a multinacionales que explotan a la infancia del tercer mundo (perfectamente legales, para que tranquilices tus ansias de ley) Joer, si es que eres de los que te persigue un psic�pata y no cruzas la carretera porque el sem�foro est� en rojo.

Posted 28 Ene 2004 at 6:12 pm ¶
Vascuencemaqueto wrote:

«MARTXATE �VETE A ESPA�A!»

Si eso no es pro-etarra �qu� lo es?

Posted 28 Ene 2004 at 6:31 pm ¶
Seth wrote:

Proetarra es «Viva Eta». «M�rchate, vete a Espa�a» es algo que te podr�a decir yo si te viera por Alacant (he dicho que podr�a, no que lo har�a). Independentismo = Terrorismo? Acab�ramos…

Posted 28 Ene 2004 at 7:18 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Seth, «m�rchate, vete a Espa�a» se dice despu�s de toda una canci�n que supongo habr�s le�do, y todos sabemos cual es la situaci�n en el Pa�s Vasco, as� que �qu� conclusiones sacas t� de la canci�n «S�ndrome del Norte»?

Posted 28 Ene 2004 at 8:24 pm ¶
Scardanelli wrote:

Alfredo, no confundas legal con legalista. Un sem�foro es una norma, no una ley. Y aunque lo fuera (que no lo es), ante el deber de respetar el tr�fico est� el de leg�tima defensa.

El boicot a las multinacionales explotadoras es igual de violento y, por tanto, ilegal y denunciable.

«Coacci�n leg�tima» es una contradicci�n en los t�rminos. Ah, claro, que son t�rminos, «meras» palabras, y las palabras se las lleva el viento.

Por lo que parece, t� aceptar�as gustoso que te boicotearan tu weblog.

En una canci�n o en un libro o en una conversaci�n, se puede decir «vete a Espa�a», «viva ETA» y cosas peores mientras no se trata de una amenaza camuflada. Es m�s, t� mismo, Alfredo, copiaste una letra «etarra» en esta misma p�gina. �Debo considerarte proetarra por eso?

Posted 28 Ene 2004 at 8:52 pm ¶
Strepto wrote:

Estoy con Alfredo y Minutisa, un boicot es un medio leg�timo de evitar la apolog�a al terrorismo etarra. No tiene nada que ver con la ilegalizaci�n de Batasuna con la que en principio nadie puede estar de acuerdo.

Les recuerdo que en Alemania existen unas leys contra el odio que no dejan ni siquiera que asome el cuello la propaganda neonazi. Por supuesto que se me podr� decir que tambi�n existen apologetas de la Cruzada y estoy de acuerdo en que deber�an ser igualmente repudiados socialmente, pero el hecho cierto es que los que matan «ahora» son los abertzales y a mi no me resulta nada graciosa la canci�n que se mofa del guardia civil (con sueldo de guardia civil y status de guardia civil o sea nada) que se agacha para ver si no le han adosado al coche una bomba lapa.

Libertad de expresi�n plena, vale…pero no si irrespeta a un colectivo que resiente las hero�cas acciones de ETA. Y sinceramente no creo que por esa v�a AVT est� abriendo el camino al Estado orwelliano que muchos pintan.

La mayor parte de los que aqu� escribimos compartirmos la idea de que ETA es s�lo una banda de matarifes de la peor ralea (como lo fueron los grupos sionistas durante la ocupaci�n brit�nica o los palestinos de Hamas) vinculada a una cultura del odio y de la estupidez «antiespa�olista» y yo con esas expresiones «culturales» de todas todas no comulgo.

Lamento dejaros pero otra vez ser�, tengo sue�o y estoy un poquit�n embotado para debatir cualquier cosa.

Como dice Mar�a de Rumania,

Ma�ana M�s.

Posted 28 Ene 2004 at 9:56 pm ¶
Strepto wrote:

Y respecto de si el boicot fue «alegal», pues quiz� s�, pero no creo que haya sido inmoral o no se corresponda con un sentimiento generalizado de repulsa a los terroristas de Eta tanto en Euzkadi como en toda Espa�a. Por cierto que si de boicots se trata, bastantes organiz� HB y Jarrai en su oportunidad, con mayor o menor efectividad pero lo hizo, y yo no vi a nadie quejarse con tanta acritud de acciones que violaban la libertad de comercio, etc. Si de actos alegales se trata pueden citarse los impuestos revolucionarios que cobra la banda armada, etc.

Aqu� no se ha apaleado a nadie, no se ha violado ninguna ley, se ha impuesto una tendencia social mayoritaria de repudio a esos descocados que escriben canciones pro-muerte y colocan en su particular pante�n a ETA, las FARC y el EZLN en una extra�a mescolanza.

Una muy querida amiga fue gravemente herida en un atentado de ETA, no me hableis por favor de ese boicot como un acto «fascista», fue acto por el respeto a los ciudadanos y de repulsa a una minor�a mafiosa y arbitraria como la que constituyen los cuadros de ETA que existe politicamente gracias a la fantasmagor�a de la «lucha nacional». La propaganda por la acci�n, as� le llamaban los anarquistas al actual terrorismo (que es un t�rmino antes que salte Scardanelli, burgu�s), el m�s inutil, indiscriminado, ciego y arbitrario de los m�todos de lucha, que en el caso de ETA, suma al oprobio la reafirmaci�n de su inutilidad como m�todo de transformaci�n pol�tica, vista la experiencia hist�rica, con relativas excepciones claro.

Particularmente creo que se ha hecho bien y me parece que tantos lamentos bienpensantes se diluir�n en la neblina de los tiempos, Muguruza seguir� cantando, pero sabr� que existe una ciudadan�a que lo repudia y que la muerte no se puede traficar ni siquiera como «producto musical».

Y lo lamento por gariraygua deshumanizado ante la realidad de una guerra contra los m�s d�biles sean civiles o militares…

Salud y yo s� lo deigo BASTA YA!!!!

Posted 28 Ene 2004 at 10:12 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Scardanelli, coacci�n leg�tima no es una contradicci�n, de hecho, gran parte del sistema educativo, desde los padres a la escuela, se basa en la coacci�n. Lo sorprendente es que en algunos mensajes te conviertes en un relativista absoluto (con una moral por persona) para pasar en otros momentos al caso contrario (el concepto de violencia como t�rmino absoluto). En cuanto al boicoteo, me parece que no hay leyes concretas contra el boicoteo, sino m�s bien contra la naturaleza del boicoteo y los medios que emplea. De esta manera, en caso de que existiese un boicot realmente promovido por la ATV, creo que ser�a perfectamente leg�timo, ya que los boicoteados son personas que apoyan al terrorismo a trav�s de su labor �cultural? Y en este caso el posible boicot estar�a a a�os luz de una noche de los cristales rotos. Y que en una canci�n se pueda decir «viva ETA» (no s� si hoy d�a puede decirse tan ricamente) no quiere decir que haya que soportar tal abyecci�n con los brazos cruzados, te remito al ejemplo del Yorshire que puse unos cuantos mensajes antes. Me uno al grito de BASTA YA de Strepto. Otra cosa se convierte en el «buen rollo» que conduce al matadero.

Posted 29 Ene 2004 at 12:12 am ¶
Scardanelli wrote:

Hola, Strepto. Ya te echaba de menos. Para no perder la costumbre, voy a discrepar contigo. Digo justamente lo contrario que t�: el boicot es ilegal (adem�s de ser moral para unos e inmoral para otros), pero la ilegalizaci�n de Batasuna (si se prob� que formaba parte de ETA) se ajusta a derecho. De todas formas, de un liberal me esperaba una defensa m�s convencida e incondicional de la libertad de expresi�n. A ver si me voy a quedar solo defendiendo las libertades burguesas…

Al afirmar la contradicci�n entre «coacci�n» y «legitimidad» me refer�a, por supuesto, al �mbito pol�tico. M�s en concreto, al derecho a la libre expresi�n. Cre�a que era evidente, pues de eso estamos hablando todo el tiempo. En esa esfera, toda coacci�n que no sea la propia del derecho, asegurada por el Estado, es por definici�n ilegitima. Un padre no puede obligar a su hijo a que crea en Dios, o en el dios de los Derechos humanos, si el v�stago rebelde quiere en cambio creer en Muguruza. Si para convertirlo a la verdadera fe el padre ejerce violencia, alg�n tipo de coacci�n, sobre su hijo d�scolo, sea por abstenci�n, neg�ndose a darle de comer, o activamente, prohibi�ndole hablar hasta que abrace su misma religi�n, el hijo podr� acudir a la comisar�a a denunciar esta situaci�n de maltrato, mal que te pese que las leyes inmorales de la libre opini�n no favorezcan al buen padre, que tan s�lo pretend�a hacer de su hijo un hombre de provecho como �l.
Dice Strepto (y creo que t�, Alfredo, tambi�n lo suscribir�as): «[aqu�] se ha impuesto una tendencia social mayoritaria de repudio a esos descocados». �Sab�is c�mo se llama al ajusticiamiento sin proceso promovido por un sector social mayoritario, por una turba sedienta de venganza?: LINCHAMIENTO. Bonita palabra, �a que s�?
Si los m�todos de ETA y Batasuna son mafiosos (no as� los de Muguruza), los de la AVT en este caso no se diferencian en absoluto. Ser�n aprendices, pero aprendices del mismo arte. Y como a mi no me gusta la mafia, los rechazo por igual. La expresi�n «propaganda por el hecho» le viene como un guante al boicot. Tambi�n aquello tan anarquista, y fascista y terrorista, de la «acci�n directa». Yo prefiero la propaganda por el derecho y la acci�n indirecta, la que pasa a trav�s de la ley com�n. Es precisamente ese arbitrio en el que se basa la tiran�a el que yo combato apelando a las leyes conocidas por todos.
Alfredo, la ley contra el boicoteo existe: es la propia ley de libre expresi�n de las opiniones. Si todos podemos opinar lo que nos plazca, incluido Muguruza, Josu Ternera o Fernando Savater, entonces el que pretende impedirlo por las malas se est� saltando dicha ley, sea la AVT o los independentistas abertzales los que griten m�s que nadie para silenciar al resto. Por cierto, me gustar�a saber qu� piensa Savater de todo esto, porque no estoy seguro de que os apoyara sin fisuras. Al menos, creo que entiende de leyes. A ver si encuentro alguna opini�n suya al respecto…
Vamos con tu ejemplo del maltratador de perros. Tenemos a un vecino salvaje que le ha dado por comprarse chuchos y dejarlos secos en cuanto nos ve (�pero qu� le hemos hecho nosotros?). Bien, curioso vicio, cuanto menos (�de d�nde sacas estos casos?). Como la ley dice que eso no se puede hacer, le ponen multas, pero el tipo es cabezota y reincide, as� que nosotros convencemos a los dem�s filoperros del barrio para hacerle el vac�o y no venderle nada, ni perros, ni perritos calientes ni cortes de pelo. Bien, ya tenemos formada nuestra brigada de justicieros. �Qu� nombre le pondremos, «La liga de la justicia perruna»? Ahora en serio: lo que conseguimos con ello es convertir a un verdugo de perros en una v�ctima de comerciantes, con lo que donde hab�a una injusticia ahora habr� dos, as� que el proceso original se duplicar� para atender la denuncia que habr� presentado, muy acertadamente, el enemigo de los canes. M�s trabajo para el juzgado.

Hasta ahora me hab�an llamado muchas veces radical e incluso terrorista, pero nunca hasta ahora «buenrollista» (y adem�s varias veces). �Mierda!,�me estar� ablandando? Lo a�ado a mi lista de adjetivos. Gracias por el regalo.

Buen rollo me parece a mi que es que te cuelen el gol de «la apolog�a de terrorismo». Eso no es m�s que un nombre m�s bonito para la censura. Pero recupero mi petici�n inicial: dadme una lista de todos los autores, escritores, m�sicos, pol�ticos, empresarios, bomberos, amas de casa, comentaristas de weblog, de ahora y siempre, que en alg�n momento de su vida hayan expresado una opini�n inmoral, un apoyo al terrorismo, una apolog�a del mal, aunque sea as� de peque�a, y que merezcan o merecieran ser acallados. Como supongo que a vosotros os gustar�a hacer una hoguera, sino ya con Muguruza, al menos con sus discos y letras, alimentemos el fuego: �qui�n ha de ir de cabeza a las llamas?

�Qu� sue�o! Vaya d�a de mensajitos. Hasta ma�ana, mis fan�ticos amigos.

Humilde(y agotada)mente,
Scardanelli.

Posted 29 Ene 2004 at 2:08 am ¶
Alfrredo_MG wrote:

«Si los m�todos de ETA y Batasuna son mafiosos (no as� los de Muguruza), los de la AVT en este caso no se diferencian en absoluto. Ser�n aprendices, pero aprendices del mismo arte». Scardanelli, con frases como �sta demuestras tu alto grado de confusi�n. Prescindes de toda dimensi�n �tica (como has hecho en todo momento) y te limitas a identificar justicia y juzgados, ley y aplicaci�n de la ley. La ley no tiene «vida propia», no es un sujeto. Su aplicaci�n se basa en conceptos m�s amplios: �tica, civismo, inteligencia etc. De hecho, el t�rmino justicia es mucho m�s amplio que el de ley (Minutisa puso un buen ejemplo bastante m�s arriba con el caso del maltrato a las mujeres). La ley es «peque�a» en comparaci�n con la justicia. Seg�n la interpretaci�n de la justicia pueden salir «charlesbronsones», «hitleres», «torquemadas» o gente que se defienda leg�timamente de una agresi�n o del apoyo solapado a una agresi�n. Tu concepto de ley y justicia (que para ti son lo mismo) es tan generalista y literal que tus razonamientos pueden aplicarse a cualquier situaci�n, independientemente de donde est�n las v�ctimas y los verdugos (y lo demuestra tu respuesta al ejemplo perruno). Seg�n tu ins�lita manera de razonar, hace unas d�cadas un esclavo no hubiera podido rebelarse contra su amo porque era ilegal, tampoco un padre puede «coaccionarle» la cara a su hijo de doce a�os que toma pastillas ni las v�ctimas de ETA pueden tomar medida alguna ante el abuso que supone la burla a sus familiares o seres queridos (inocentes) asesinados, mutilados o desesperados. Tanto en el caso de la ley como en el de las palabras te ci�es al significante, a los continentes. No ejerces ninguna aplicaci�n a casos concretos y te conviertes en un absolutista de la ley y justicia (prescindiendo adem�s siempre de toda participaci�n de la �tica en este asunto). A este paso terminar�s parafraseando la famosa frase y diciendo «all� por donde pasa un miembro de la ATV no vuelve a crecer la hierba» y present�ndote voluntario como v�ctima de ETA en sus oficinas, sitas en el zulo n�3 del bosque de Gurrutukorrakecheandoa, esquina de las rocas a y b.

Posted 29 Ene 2004 at 9:58 am ¶
replicante wrote:

Animo Alfredo.
Aqu� hay gente que s ellena la boca con el concepto de «libertad de expresi�n» (siempre a su favor, of course), y olvida el propio concepto de libertad, el cual acaba donde empieza la de los dem�s….

Posted 29 Ene 2004 at 10:59 am ¶
Janine wrote:

Soy alemana y no entiendo muy bien estos temas, pero creo que no me ha parecido muy divertido teniendo en cuenta el humor inteligente que se gastan normalmente en esta p�gina.

Posted 29 Ene 2004 at 12:45 pm ¶
Yo mismo wrote:

Pues supongo que las victimas del terrorismo se lo estar�n pasando de puta madre, viendo como les confunden con sus verdugos, y c�mo se defienden los derechos de sus verdugos y se pisotean los suyos.

Posted 29 Ene 2004 at 1:30 pm ¶
Scardanelli wrote:

Alfredo, no entiendo porqu� no atacas mis argumentos por lo que dicen, en lugar de psicoanalizarme gratis. Yo he analizado tanto tus ejemplos como tus principios, partiendo de ellos y sin hacer suposiciones acerca de qu� patolog�a de las que padeces te ha llevado a defenderlos. No he pretendido adivinar la causa por la que sientes esa man�a de perseguir cantantes o qu� trauma infantil te produjo esta intransigencia moralista. Si soy un obseso de las leyes, �qu� le vamos a hacer?, ya es tarde para cambiar, pero de lo que se trata es de que respondas a esto: �son compatibles la libertad de expresi�n y cualquier forma de boicot? Si dicha libertad s�lo puede garantizarla la ley, �por qu� una moral privada determinada ha de tener la potestad de «suspender la legalidad» en los casos en que al moralista le d� la gana?

Y aclaro m�s en qu� consiste mi «enfermizo legalismo»: no estoy haciendo proselitismo legalista ni llamando a la obediencia ciega a la ley de facto, sino que me limito a analizar cu�les son las condiciones ideales necesarias para que haya aut�ntica libertad de expresi�n. Hablo, pues, de principios te�ricos, no de estados de cosas. Si el estado de cosas nacional no coincide con el modelo general, peor para el estado de cosas, como dec�a Hegel. Por eso puedo criticar el delito de «apolog�a del terrorismo» como una incoherencia inasumible, como un monstruo jur�dico inderivable del principio, insertado a la fuerza en el c�digo penal y cuya existencia no resiste un an�lisis m�nimamente serio.

Repito una acusaci�n anterior: veo m�s demagogia de la que me es dado asimilar. Por favor, dosis m�s peque�as, que se me atraganta.

La embestida al grito de «�Por las v�ctimas del terrorismo!» no es un modo l�cito de entrar en los sitios, sino un allanamiento de morada puro y duro. El conjuro «Venguemos a las v�ctimas de ETA sin hacernos responsables de nuestros actos» no es una llave que abra todas las puertas.

�ltimo argumento: sup�n la existencia de un secuestrador de perros (para no abandonar tu ejemplo) y la de un justificador-fomentador del secuestro de perros. Imagina ahora que hacemos desaparecer al propagandista. �Contin�a siendo culpable el secuestrador? Yo dir�a que s�. Ahora veamos qu� ocurrir�a si sucede lo contrario, si borramos del ejemplo al raptador. �No es verdad que un justificador de secuestradores sin secuestradores es, incluso desde tu punto de vista, inocente? Si ya no hay raptos caninos, �qu� castigo merecer�a el apologeta de los raptos? Continuemos manteniendo el alejamiento del secuestrador de la escena y a�adamos a la f�bula a un colaborador de los secuestradores, a un tipo que prestaba su saco al raptador para que �ste concluyera con �xito sus andanzas. �C�mo queda el asunto? Tenemos a un justificador que puede continuar justificando el rapto de perros, aunque de hecho no haya secuestradores, porque su justificaci�n del rapto lo es en general. Adem�s, dicha justificaci�n no es delictiva. Por tanto, es independiente de que haya cr�menes o no. Pero ser independiente de los cr�menes es la definici�n exacta de inocencia. En cambio, el colaborador depende de que se produzca el hecho, pues, de otro modo, no tiene a nadie a quien dejar el saco, y, por tanto, la existencia del colaborador conlleva la del delito. Un colaborador de un crimen sin crimen es un absurdo. Pero si est� tan unido al crimen que su existencia como colaborador depende de la existencia del crimen, entonces tenemos aqu� la definici�n de culpable, de responsable de un crimen. Meditadlo.

Como, en todo caso, las opiniones de un buenrollista bientintencionado, de un loco ingenuo, de un obseso legalista, etc., etc., no parecen calar demasiado en vuestras endurecidas pieles de personas insobornables ante las debilidades, cedo la palabra a un hombre cuerdo y valiente: Fernando Savater (no os ceb�is mucho con �l, que ha sufrido el terrorismo en sus propias carnes y, por tanto, todo lo que dice est� cargado de raz�n). Escucha, Minutisa, que esto te interesa.

Todas las citas est�n extraidas del «Diccionario filos�fico». La primera es de la entrada «�tica» (todas las may�sculas son m�as): «Hay que evitar cuidadosamente confundir la reflexi�n �tica con la b�squeda de justificaciones judiciales para sancionar una conducta. La �tica no se centra en la prevenci�n y castigo de los delitos, ni en proporcionar legitimaciones para tales coacciones (por otra parte necesarias), ni siquiera en elaborar razonamientos sobre lo colectivamente reprobable, como parecen suponer quienes ante cualquier oleada de esc�ndalos o delitos empiezan a pedir �tica como quien pide un buen garrote. Para la conciencia �tica, lo malo no es «aquello que puede ser sancionado» sino «lo impropio de mi». Es preciso DESJUDICIALIZAR la moral si queremos profundizar en ella, mientras que los despistados (…) nos proponen precisamente lo opuesto». No sigo con este p�rrafo, que es muy largo, pero m�s adelante llama a vuestra visi�n de la �tica «ret�rica piadosa» y «demagogia». M�s adelante escribe:»El campo �tico o moral (…) se ocupa de la administraci�n que cada cual hace de su vida, por su propio bien. El escenario de este debate(…) es fundamentalmente �ntimo: LA CONCIENCIA DE CADA CUAL».

Respecto a las barbaridades que aparecen en las ficciones, un aviso (entrada «Ficciones»): «Lo alarmante no es la violencia, la desmesura sexual, el racismo o la rapacidad criminal que aparecen en las pel�culas, sino la perversamente ingenua suposici�n de que tales males no se desencadenan en la realidad m�s que porque se los representa en la ficci�n. Pues SE TRATA DE FICCIONES, no lo olvidemos». Si sustitu�s «pel�culas» por «canciones de Muguruza», ten�is una bonita acusaci�n de ingenuidad contra vosotros, los amigos de Savater, lanzada por �l mismo. Lo m�s gracioso de todo es que un «despreciador» de las v�ctimas como yo, coincida con la m�s intelectualmente prestigiosa de ellas.

Pero sigo citando: «(…) el principio interpretativo que aplica categor�as DE RECHAZO MORAL al comportamiento de entes de ficci�n -y por tanto a las obras en que �stos aparecen- es aceptado como razonable por gente aparentemente sensata. Puede que siempre haya quien confunda lo fingido art�sticamente y la vida real o quien tome como modelos de acci�n episodios socialmente da�inos en los que la imaginaci�n se desfoga con sue�os brutales que la civilidad reprime, pero ser�a grave dar por inevitables tales asimilaciones, COMBATI�NDOLAS CON PROHIBICIONES en vez de educar para comprenderlas y aun DISFRUTARLAS INOCUAMENTE». Os recuerdo, por si lo hab�is olvidado, que a lo m�s que ha llegado Muguruza, o el «ente de ficci�n» que habla en sus canciones, es a so�ar con que es un terrorista.

Savater termina as� su reflexi�n: «De modo que luchemos contra la falsedad ideol�gica vigente y NO CONTRA LOS ESPECT�CULOS QUE LA REFLEJAN». Secundo su petici�n, porque es lo que estoy diciendo desde el inicio: luchemos contra el terrorismo, no contra las canciones que reflejan su degradado ideario.

(Oye, Alfredo, �de veras esto no puede explotar con tanta sobreinformaci�n, no estamos sobrepasando el punto cr�tico? �Cu�l es el l�mite de estos weblogs?).

Humildemente,
Scardanelli.

Posted 29 Ene 2004 at 2:44 pm ¶
nomentero wrote:

A ver si me explico:
La SGAE defiende la libertad de expresi�n de sus asociados, no el terrorismo, ni n� de na. No se puede defender la libertad e unos casos y otros no (siempre que entre en lo juridicamente correcto). Si Muguruza no va a la carcel que diga lo que quiera. La libertad es para todos, incluso los que no piensan como tu (eso ya es de EGBo ESO)

Los abusos sexuales es un delito, pero hablar de como los romanos follaban con ni�os no lo es. Hay que distinguir el abuso, de hablar de sexo. Es que creo que no has entendido.

Porque se saca solo el tema de Arana, que no mat� a naidie y no otra gente igualmente racista que represente el nacionalismo espa�ol. No se si me explico, es un uso «torticero» de las gilipolleces del colega.

Tengo entendido que eran mas de dos… puedes darme bibliografia al respecto?

Posted 29 Ene 2004 at 3:11 pm ¶
Strepto wrote:

�Por qu� una moral privada determinada ha de tener la potestad de «suspender la legalidad» en los casos en que al moralista le d� la gana?

Pues mira por donde, la moralidad de Eta se impone a las leyes que rigen la convivencia en sociedad, la moral privada de unos pocos. No es contradictorio?. Pronto analizar� �ste asunto como se requiere y adem�s matizar� algunas posiciones, no pido disculpas por haber escrito m�s con el coraz�n que con la raz�n, me duelen las v�ctimas de ETA por que tengo a una persona muy querida entre ellas y por eso escrib� lo que escrib� pero ahora toca dejar las enajenaciones repentinas y cavilar. De alguna forma hay que matar el tiempo….

Posted 29 Ene 2004 at 4:54 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Veamos. Si yo fuese un cantautor y hago una canci�n en la que pido la expulsi�n de los negros de Espa�a (eso s�, con los rodeo adecuados de palabra para que no me manden a la trena directamente), se supone que hago ficciones y que si unas cuantas organizaciones humanitarias se proponen, por ejemplo, que no act�e contratado con dinero p�blico no pueden bajo ning�n concepto. �Por qu� voy a sustituir pel�culas por canciones de Muguruza? Una cosa es una ficci�n, que exige que se finja. �»Mugu» -ya es como de la familia- finge? Que yo sepa no se dedica a la narraci�n de cosas fant�sticas, sino que tiene una intenci�n bien clara, m�s propagand�stica que imaginativa. �Consideramos entonces a Goebbels como narrador? Preguntas que si la libertad de expresi�n es compatible con cualquier forma de boicot, y la pregunta puede ser �es la libertad de expresi�n compatible con esta forma de boicot? (suponiendo que exista tal boicot). En cuanto a tu interpretaci�n del texto de Savater, creo que has errado al ponerlo. Desde mi punto de vista dice todo lo contrario de lo que t� crees. Nomentero, as� que hay que defender todas las libertades…piensa lo que has dicho y ent�rate. Y Scardanelli, �quien te ha dicho que te psicoanalizo gratis? Te pienso mandar la factura por correo electr�nico, y tambi�n la del oculista, que con los tochos que escribes y los que me est�s obligando escribir a m� me est� saliendo un derrame en el ojo derecho.

Posted 29 Ene 2004 at 5:34 pm ¶
Saian wrote:

Fermin (karajam�n, como se le conoce en ciertos circulos) me parece un demago-go! como personaje p�blico pero un ejemplo de coherencia como artista.
Ha fusionado ( y bien)metal, ska, reggae, big beat, salsa,hip hop, punk, pop…
A pesar de cantar en una lengua que no hablan (hablamos) ni 700000 personas en todo el mundo ( y la utilizan muchos menos), lleva 15 a�os girando por Europa, es reconocidisimo en Sudamerica y ha tocado por todo el globo desde Pek�n o Tokio hasta Washington D.C. (donde ya no puede ir por estar en la lista negra de Bush, thanks to Ansar), todo ello desde una empresa autogestionada con sede en Ir�n y que edita tb a argentinos, franceses, argelinos, italianos …hasta espa�oles! XD
Ha escrito letras de amor, de odio, sobre comics (crumb, liberatore),de marxismo (opiniones aparte hay q tener huevos para declararse marxista y encima cantar al marxismo en estos tiempos de buenrrollismo antiglobalizador alternativo), de la alienaci�n,para ni�os,para feministas , ha versioneado a Jara , Bretch o Peret ,ha ganado un juicio al infame Galindo y hasta en ocasiones (para mi) ha rozado la poes�a, como en esa cancion en la que nos recordaba que Bob Dylan se enamor� en Durango.
Tambi�n ha dado su vision sobre el Pais Vasco y sobre el terrorismo.Visi�n que no comparto en absoluto, pero parece que s�lo eso vale como para calificarle exclusivamente como un mero emisor de «ruido proetarra». Su primo Josu fue asesinado a tiros en Madrid por un polic�a y un tal Ynestrillas. Eso ni mucho menos justifica nada pero tal vez ayuda a comprender algo m�s…
Y hay gente que se pregunta donde est� el simplismo en todo esta pol�mica. Solo queria dar una opinion y me ha salido un panfleto hagiografico, pero as� est�n las cosas…

Posted 29 Ene 2004 at 6:10 pm ¶
Kortatu el Mugalari wrote:

Ferm�n Muguruza estuvo un llamado Kortatu. Kortatu era el nombre de un mugalari de ETA que, como dir�an en Mexico lindo, muri� «balaceado» por la Polic�a Nacional (algo de lo que no hace falta decir que me congratulo; bien muerto est�). Si ponerse el nombre de un fulano que se dedica a pasar la muga con prop�sitos terroristas no es apolog�a del terrorismo, que venga Josu Ternera y me lo cuente.

«Ferm�n se declara como un militante independiente, no sujeto a ninguna estructura. «Colabor� con HB y ahora apoyo a EH, colectivos en los que se agrupa mucha gente con diferentes ideas. Para m�, eso del partido con direcci�n nacional que ordene y mande se acab� con la revoluci�n sandinista», admite. Su colaboraci�n con estas formaciones, junto a sus apariciones en la prensa como articulista, han convertido a este personaje en algo m�s que un m�sico, aunque �l no se aprecia a s� mismo como punto de referencia de nada: «yo me muevo en la calle y estoy en contacto con ella, por lo que no soy muy consciente de eso. Puede que la gente me vea como una persona con mayor peso o como una formaci�n de opini�n al relacionarme con organizaciones internacionalistas, pero no creo que sea lo adecuado. Solamente colaboro en lo que creo que puedo ayudar». El hecho no es nuevo. Kortatu, el nombre de su primer grupo, era tambi�n el apodo de un mugalari de ETA que muri� a manos de la polic�a nacional. La misi�n de un mugalari es la de ayudar a cruzar la frontera a gente que no puede hacerlo legalmente, hecho que se repet�a con bastante frecuencia en una localidad como Ir�n.»

http://www.todaslasnovedades.net/articulos/1999/entrevistas/FerminMuguruza.html

«En una colaboraci�n suya con el grupo sevillano Reincidentes, se dice que «callar las armas no es renunciar a ser un pueblo libre», �piensa usted que la lucha armada es la mejor soluci�n para el conflicto en Euskadi? �se ha conseguido algo con ella?»

«Bueno… con la lucha armada se han conseguido much�simas cosas… Te iba a decir, al principio, que soy marxista, y la cuesti�n es que me interesa much�simo el marxismo, y por eso creo que en cada momento, y dependiendo precisamente del contexto y de lo que est� ocurriendo a nivel mundial, hay que analizar las cosas y hay que hacer un an�lisis concreto de la realidad concreta, que es lo que dir�a el marxismo. Y en ese sentido, con la movilizaci�n y el desarrollo que han tenido todos los movimientos de liberaci�n, yo no comparto actualmente la lucha armada.»

«Que ha conseguido cosas, pues claro que se han conseguido. Ha servido para, en un mont�n de situaciones cr�ticas para que haya una serie de resortes a nivel popular que se hayan levantado, y a nivel tambi�n de estrategia de lucha armada se ha conseguido castigar al franquismo, cosa que muy poca gente lo consigui�, y eso lo consigui� ETA con actuaciones como las dirigidas contra V�ctor [sic] Manzanas, el gran torturador conocido en todo el mundo, que fue la primera v�ctima, y luego tambi�n con Carrero Blanco, que era el destinado a suceder a Franco [sin olvidar a los opresores del pueblo vasco que murieron en Hipercor comprando como cerdos capitalistas].»

«Otra cosa es, por ejemplo, que en el Pa�s Vasco, si no tenemos una central nuclear, fue debido, en gran parte, a la movilizaci�n popular, pero tambi�n a la acci�n armada de ETA, y eso no nos lo puede negar nadie, si no tendr�amos ahora mismo una central nuclear en Lemoniz [y los cinco hijos del ingeniero jefe, Jos� Mar�a Ryan, a�n tendr�an padre…], o no habr�a ahora mismo Pa�s Vasco, como ocurri� en Chernovil [sic].»

http://www.nodo50.org/auroradigital/cultura20.html

Por cierto, a los que les aprieta la boina les recomiendo que piensen que pasar�a si Siniestro Total se cambiase el nombre por el de H�roes de la Divisi�n Azul. �Aprobar�an el boicot de sus conciertos? Claro que s�. Y pedir�an sus cabezas en un plato. Pero es lo que tiene la hipocres�a de quienes acusan a los dem�s de ser nazis… pero luego justifican a los Muguruzas, los Kortatus y los Terneras, que todos son hijos de la misma madre.

Posted 29 Ene 2004 at 9:37 pm ¶
Scardanelli wrote:

Ya que Nomentero ha sacado el tema de los abusos a menores, contin�o con el ejemplo (no paro de ilustrar mis conceptos con casos concretos y Alfredo se queja de que s�lo hablo de generalidades). Has de saber que en la red se pueden encontrar relatos ficticios de pederastia, en los que se fomentan claramente las violaciones infantiles. A trav�s de la ficci�n se difunde un mensaje en el que se anima a transgredir la ley. Pues bien, no es posible prohibirlos, porque por mucho que la policia registrara la casa de los autores no encontraria ni�os violados por ninguna parte, tan s�lo unos sospechosos l�pices y papeles y una mente perversa. Otro ejemplo: Sade hac�a propaganda expresa de la violaci�n y el asesinato de ni�os, as� como del terrorismo m�s salvaje. A su lado Mugu es un ni�o de teta. Corrijo: «hac�a y hace», porque en la FNAC se pueden comprar tranquilamente sus panfletos y no me consta que la AVT haya dicho nada al respecto (buff, esto se llena de siglas). �O a la AVT s�lo le interesa el terrorismo abertzale? Y no hablo �nicamente de sus «ficciones», sino tambi�n de sus ensayos filos�ficos (Si quieres ma�ana te pongo alguno, si prometes no escandalizarte ni iniciar una campa�a de boicot contra la obra del malicioso marqu�s). �Por qu� la AVT no pide la prohibici�n de los textos de Bakunin, que promueven sin pudor el terror indiscrimado? �Es que no pueden caer (o a lo peor ya han caido) en manos de etarras? Y eso que en este caso el asunto es m�s grave, porque la apolog�a bakuniana del terrorismo libertario se explica, se lee y se comenta incluso en las escuelas. �Pero qu� clase de educaci�n les estamos dando a nuestros peque�os? Ya puestos, �por qu� no enviarlos al colegio con pasamonta�as?

Alfredo, la propaganda es difusi�n de ideas y las ideas son «entes ficticios» que, mientras se mantienen como ideas, no provocan da�os corporales. Cuando en un anuncio sale un fulano que nos recomienda determinado detergente porque deja la ropa m�s blanca que los de la competencia, seguramente no sea del todo cierto que el tipo nos hable con la mano en el coraz�n, sino llev�ndosela a la cartera. A Goebbels, el sumo maestro de propagandistas, no se le pod�a condenar por sus delirios, como tampoco a Leni Riefenstalh por sus pel�culas (que, por cierto, las pasan en las Filmotecas a cargo del Estado). Tarek Aziz, el ministro de «informaci�n» de Sadam, ni siquiera ha sido condenado por Estados Unidos por su alucinante propaganda animando a la resistencia contra el invasor. Si as� fuera, Urdaci no se librar�a de la c�rcel. Una canci�n, o una pel�cula, por muy «realista» que sea nunca es la realidad. �Recuerdas aquello que nos dec�an de peque�o: «no te asustes, que s�lo es una pel�cula»? Pues eso, amigos, no os asust�is, hombre, que s�lo es una canci�n de propaganda terrorista. Quiz�s repugne, pero no explota.

Sup�n una banda criminal barbilampi�ista. Si enviaran una carta a fulano de tal porque lleva bigote, amenaz�ndole as�: «Fulano de tal, o te afeitas el bigote o te dejamos tieso», esto ser�a realidad de la peor especie, no ideas ficticias, porque no justifican o fomentan el asesinato sino que le ponen d�a y hora y nombre y apellidos. Si uno de los barbilampi�os escribiera un libro pidiendo la muerte para todos los barbudos y bigotudos, eso ser�a ficci�n, tambi�n de la peor especie, pero simple ficci�n, como todos los proyectos imaginarios. Si Mugu canta que hay que matar policias (bueno, tampoco es que sea un letrista tan burdo como lo pinto), FINGE ser un terrorista. Si Mugu dijera en una entrevista, literalmente, que ETA ha de matar a quien le salga de la txapela, estar�a haciendo propaganda, animando al asesinato, pero para poder emitir ese juicio tendr�a que imaginar el asesinato del que habla, sin necesidad de llevarlo a cabo, y por eso estar�a fingiendo: hablando de posilidades ideales, imaginando lo que no hay. En cambio, si por toda respuesta se cargara al entrevistador sin decir esta boca es m�a, no habr�a ficci�n, sino un cad�ver y un asesino. Si para ti ambos casos son lo mismo, pregunta al entrevistador con qu� Mugu preferir�a toparse.

�El texto de Savater dice todo lo contrario de lo que yo creo? Pues no me dejes en ascuas y entra en detalles, hombre… �C�mo hay que interpretarlo entonces?

Lo de la factura se avisa al principio, Alfredo, que esto que me has hecho es una vil faena, y a traici�n. Y encima pago para que me declaren majareta… Si ya me lo dec�a mi mam�: no andes con tertulianos, que primero te insultan y despu�s te obligan a pagar los costes.

Creo que me tomar� un merecido descanso, amigos. Nadie podr� acusarme ya de no haber defendido que se le haga justicia a todos por igual. Que otro tome ahora el relevo.

Y que el Se�or os conserve la vista, que a mi esta pantalla me est� quemando las retinas a marchas forzadas.

Humildemente,
Scardanelli.

Posted 29 Ene 2004 at 9:38 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Hay determinadas ideas que atentan contra los m�s elementales derechos humanos, y «ficciones» que las propagan y que no est�n realizadas con la intenci�n de fingir (�de verdad crees que Muguruza se convierte en actor en sus canciones, o transmite sus ideas? Y si es un actor se encasilla siempre en el papel proetarra, debe ser un especialista). En este caso, tales ideas se al�an a unos asesinos. Esas ideas, evidentemente, no equivalen al asesinato, y est�n elaboradas de tal manera que sortean la ley (cosa f�cil, quien hizo la ley…). Eso no quiere decir que no existan multitud de formas l�citas de luchar contra el terrorismo, su entorno y sus «cantantes». Un ejemplo, evitar sus conciertos mediante una campa�a informativa, haciendo uso de la libertad de expresi�n. Si eso termina convirti�ndose en un boicot, tanto mejor, en cualquier caso resulta leg�timo. La labor de la ATV no ha vulnerado ninguna ley, y es respetuosa con los derechos humanos, y tienen la misma libertad de expresi�n que esos grupos. Si lleg�semos a hablar de boicot, igual. La permisividad con ETA y su entorno, desde sus colaboradores directos hasta los cantantes que los apoyan por ignorancia, incultura, estupidez o vileza supone enterrar a dos metros bajo tierra, y por este orden, al sentido com�n, a la inteligencia y, finalmente, a un inocente.

Posted 29 Ene 2004 at 10:57 pm ¶
Saian wrote:

Aclaro que un mugalari no tiene por que estar relacionado con ETA. Un mugalari es un contrabandista. (literalmente, «fronterero» XD). Mi abuelo era un franquista convencido y «trabaj�» de mugalari durante buena parte de la posguerra.

El concepto de «boicot» a un concierto ser� todo lo respetable que quieras pero recuerda a los fundamentalistas cristianos que organizaban marchas o se encadenaban a las puertas de los recintos para impedir la realizaci�n de los recitales de Alice Cooper o mas recientemente, Marilyn Manson.

Sinceramente me parece que la gente deber�a tener otras prioridades antes que impedir que un artista interprete su obra , o su fantochada ideol�gica o como lo quer�is llamar. Para empezar , porque ni siquiera est� «difundiendo» sus ideas ya que nadie que no est� previamente interesado en �l acudir� a un concierto. De hecho, la AVT est� haciendo de caja de resonancia para carajam�n, adem�s de darle argumentos para «victimizarse» �l mismo. Y la �nica cosa pr�ctica que est�n consiguiendo es tocar el saco de nueces a mucha gente y poner en boca ciertas bocas el odioso razonamiento de «�v�ctimas? algo habr�n hecho…»

En cuanto a los grupos nazis , pa «kortatu el mugalari», aplico el mismo razonamiento: no creo que «difundan» el ideal nacionalsocialista. Si yo quisiera informarme de sus ideas o propuestas o lo que fuera , ten por seguro que lo har�a desde la comodidad de esta pantalla antes que meterme a bailar oi! entre una banda de fornidos nacionalsindicalistas con el cuero cabelludo al aire y serios transtornos de personalidad. El unico prejuicio que tengo es la violencia gratuita (y directa) que suele rodear ese ambiente.

No me extra�ar�a que siniestro total se cambiaran el nombre a «Rudolf Hess y los que gasean rabinos de tres en tresSS». Despu�s de haberse llamado «Mari Cruz Soriano y los que afinan su piano» cualquier cosa. De hecho una de las se�as est�ticas del punk en sus inicios fue la adopci�n de parafernalia nazi «descontextualizada», buscando la mera provocaci�n. Creo que la imagen de Sid Vicious balbuceando incoherencias con una enorme cruz gamada en su pecho ha hecho m�s por desprestigiar esa aureola atrayente que parece tener el nazismo que otros intentos m�s serios.Como curiosidad, decir que los riquisimos sobres de pasta china precocinada que me trae mi colega Alex desde Taiwan llevan impresas esv�sticas de respetable tama�o.XD

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 12:04 am ¶
Que triste wrote:

Por primera vez entro en esta pagina y veo tanta mierda que me mareo. Es incomprensible que ante tantas pruebas de conexi�n terrorista entre los susodichos musicos y ETA a nadie se le haya pasado por la cabeza llevarlos ante un juez. �O si lo han hecho? Es verdad, lo han hecho, entre otros la AVT. Y el resultado ha sido… Que siguen cantando. Jamas se les ha anulado un concierto por presiones a ellos, sino que se ha usado la demagogia para presionar, desde varios ambitos, a los programadores. La tactica es bastante simple, pero no por ello poco trabajada. Comienza la AVT manifestando sus quejas por dichas actuaciones; si no funciona, comienza la persecucion por parte de grupos de la extrema derecha, presiones, amenazas, manifestaciones ante las salas,… Si todo esto funciona y se permite (incluso alguno lo celebra), �que autoridad ten�is para recriminar nada?
En fin, que los lavados de cerebro funcionan a la perfecci�n.

PD: Pod�is ahorraros el ponerme a parir, no volver� a entrar no sea que algo de esto sea contagioso. Saludos, camaradas.

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 12:14 am ¶
Scardanelli wrote:

�Milagro, Kortatu, he leido la entrevista a Muguruza que nos has copiado tan amablemente y… sigo vivo! �D�nde est� el peligro? Sentir asco no es suficiente raz�n para prohibir hablar a nadie. Y, Kortatu, yo al menos s� estoy en contra de todos los boicots (Ser� porque no llevo txapela).

Ya v�is que me cuesta desengancharme de esta adictiva controversia. Regreso moment�neamente porque he encontrado algunas perlas de otro «obseso legalista» que no tiene reparos en eludir la moral. Y eso que �l es catedr�tico de �tica. �Tendr� un alma gemela en Fernando Savater y yo sin saberlo? (Todas las citas son de El Pa�s):

17-09-00: «Ante el terrorismo y su intimidaci�n expl�cita o impl�cita, muchos reclamamos que el Estado de derecho utilice a fondo las armas de la ley: s�lo las armas de la ley, pero todas las armas de la ley». De acuerdo por ahora, Fernandito.

21-10-00: «Entre la inhumana ley de la jungla y la sobrehumana ley del amor creo que est� sencillamente la ley, que es s�lo humana y a veces demasiado humana. Esa ley es actualmente el Estatuto y la Constituci�n(…) La unidad de los dem�cratas debe ser alcanzada en torno al Estado de derecho y su ley, no en ning�n otro gaseoso y sublime limbo prepol�tico». Aceptado tambi�n. La �tica que se la guarde cada uno para uso personal y el arbitrio tambi�n fuera de aqu�.

6-04-02: Aqu� F.S. nos habla de la que en aquel momento a�n era tan s�lo posible ilegalizaci�n de Batasuna: «De lo que estoy seguro es de que tal medida no equivaldr�a a prohibir ideas pol�ticas». De lo que se deduce que a F.S. s� le preocupa que se prohiban ideas. De todos modos, recordad esta frase para compararla con el siguiente p�rrafo.

8-06-02: «(…)la ley no veta ideas, sino determinados comportamientos». Si es lo que yo digo. Sin embargo, �oh, terrible decepci�n!, este coherente pensamiento se contradice m�s adelante por las buenas, sin aclarar desde d�nde habla ahora: «lo m�s a que puede aspirarse es a obstaculizar en la medida de lo posible la difusi�n y propaganda de algunas [ideas] consideradas especialmente da�inas». �Alguien entiende el galimat�as? �»Consideradas especialmente da�inas» por qui�n? �O es que la ley tiene una opini�n propia al respecto? La ley no veta ideas pero, �oh, milagro de la l�gica!, veta algunas ideas. Vaya, vaya. Lamentable ca�da de la exigencia de nuestro Fernando, tan s�lo explicable porque el hombre se iba haciendo mayor y por la comprensible ansiedad de estar amenazado por canallas impunes (aqu� no hay iron�a). Pero F.S., �ignoras que mientras no se lleven a la pr�ctica, las ideas son s�lo ideas? Bueno, m�s adelante intenta arreglar un poco el desaguisado y desl�ar el embrollo, limitando las prohibiciones a las ideas da�inas que constituyen «legitimaciones pol�ticas institucionales», pero no cuela y sigue sin gustarme. Y menos a�n cuando ya su deriva se hace completa y afirma que el apoyo a las v�ctimas pasa por no aceptar que «los que justifican o ensalzan las agresiones sean tratados con no menos miramientos que ellos mismos». Si donde dice «miramientos» quiere decir «miramientos», estoy de acuerdo, pero si quiere decir «derechos», como reivindican algunos por aqu�, me opongo de todas todas, porque o bien la ley defiende (o castiga) a todos por igual, o ser� otra cosa, pero no ley.

Nada, que ya ten�is m�s carnaza en juego.

Humilde(y enganchada)mente,
Scardanelli.

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 2:03 am ¶
Johny Mentero wrote:

Por ahi se ha mencionado a Marilyn Manson, auntentico provocador todo a cien como Johny Depp o chulitos similares. Escribo desde USA y me comenta alguien que algunos van a armarla por su rollo cristiano, pero que en el fondo la mitad esta organizada por la discografica por publicidad.

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 5:35 am ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Seg�n Scardanelli, «Sentir asco no es suficiente raz�n para prohibir nada a nadie», o sea, que dejemos al im�n de turno apoyar el maltrato a las mujeres, puesto que, Scardanelli, seguir�s sin moratones tras su lectura. Como dir�s que en ese caso s� se vulneraba la ley, pongamos que un ecologista loco (con los eufemismos y rodeos consabidos para evitar la c�rcel) escribe art�culos donde promueve el asesinato de los due�os de las tiendas de mascotas. Pues nada, total, tras su lectura seguimos vivos, los periquitos siguen vivos, y los due�os de tiendas de mascotas tambi�n. Pero nada, las ideas es que no cuentan, como el ser humano parece ser que hace todo por instinto, pues que va a contar una idea, si no tienen influencia ni n� de n�. Por el texto que pones de Savater, m�s bien parece a favor de medidas como el boicot del que hablamos. Y, obseso legalista, me gustar�a saber qu� leyes vulnera un boicot del tipo ATV, en el caso de que lo hubiese, o un boicot contra coca cola por el asunto de la explotaci�n infantil, o el boicot propugnado por putasgae (no comprar discos o pel�culas espa�olas) debido a los c�nones. Un boicot es una forma de presi�n que puede ser leg�tima o ileg�tima seg�n los casos, o legal o ilegal seg�n los medios. Si el boicot contra coca cola supone que hay que pellizcar con unos alicates las nalgas de los camioneros que transportan las cajas, ser�a ilegal por los medios. En el caso de la ATV, ejercen su libertad de expresi�n, informan, hablan, exponen y muestran las letras. Si eso les proporciona apoyos, lo siento por aquellos a los que Muguruza o Sociedad Alkoh�lica les parecen gracios�simos.

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 10:55 am ¶
Seth wrote:

Parece que el debate m�s sustancioso, el de Scardanelli y Alfredo, ha llegado a un punto donde ya todo est� dicho y poco nuevo puede aportarse, as� que, como buenos dem�cratas que somos todos (o no?), propongo que, ya que ninguno de los dos ha podido convencer al otro, votemos los dem�s a quien pensemos que tiene la raz�n. As�, aunque no lleguemos a la Verdad Suprema, tendremos por lo menos su suced�neo plebiscitario.

Yo voto por Scardanelli.

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 11:32 am ¶
Garganta Profunda wrote:

Saludos a Seth (el de Novelda)!

Yo tambien voto por Scardanelli. Os recuerdo que es el ideologo principal del Partido Definitivo. Y su orador mas preciado por cierto, del que esperamos bata el record de longitud de discurso que actualmente ostenta Fidel Castro.

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 12:28 pm ¶
Echos Bones wrote:

Yo me sumo a los partidarios de Scardanelli
(buena idea, Seth, la de cortar esta discusi�n que se estaba repitiendo a s� misma demasiado)

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 1:15 pm ¶
Seth wrote:

Qu� hay, Garganta!

He echado de menos tu participaci�n en este ultradenso debate, pero de todos modos, gracias por tu voto para el Partido Scardanellico que acabo de fundar (y que se integrar� en el Partido Definitivo si lo estimamos conveniente las bases :p ) De momento ganamos con el 100 % de los votos emitidos!

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 1:17 pm ¶
Ethan Edwards wrote:

Yo tambi�n voto por Scardanelli. Por cierto me he enterado que la ATV tiene pensado utilizar su libertad de expresi�n para protestar el s�bado, por la candidatura de Medem a mejor documental en la gala de los «premios». Me parece que eso es presionar la conciencia de un jurado para que sienta remordimientos a la hora de juzgar la obra de un autor. S� que es una desgracia lo que han sufrido en sus carnes por culpa de unos asesinos, pero de ah� ha que intenten ser una instancia superior que diga a los dem�s lo que es moral y lo que es inmoral va un largo trecho.

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 1:45 pm ¶
Scardanelli wrote:

Ten�is raz�n, el debate ha entrado en una repetici�n de argumentos. Lo del im�n creo que ya lo dije: el iman APOYA LA IDEA del maltrato, no maltrata, as� que diga lo que quiera, pero que no se atreva a ponerle la mano encima a una mujer.

Tambi�n dije ya qu� ley vulneran todos los boicots: la ley que permite la libre expresi�n de opiniones.

A mi tambi�n me da la sensaci�n que Savater al final termina por daros la raz�n a los pro-linchamiento, pero si es as�, entonces F.S. es todav�a m�s incoherente que t�, Alfredo, porque �l encima no apelaba a la moral ni a los derechos humanos, sino tan s�lo a la ley. Al menos t� tienes la excusa de tu instancia de apelaci�n sobrehumana. De todas formas, intuyo, por otras opiniones que estuve leyendo ayer de �l, que no se refer�a a acosos, boicots o linchamientos, sino s�lo a realizar manifestaciones a favor de las v�ctimas y a criticar con dureza las ideas aberrantes, pero siempre desde otras ideas y opiniones, sin pasar a la acci�n ilegal. Si fuera as�, dir�a lo mismo que yo (De todas formas no se trataba de buscar apoyo en un argumento de autoridad, sino de introducir m�s voces en el debate)

Una �ltima cosa, tus argumentos son exactamente los mismos que los de esos fan�ticos antiabortistas americanos que se «manifiestan pac�ficamente» delante de los hospitales donde saben que se desprecia a la vida. Espero que no termin�is como ellos, que apoyaban los asesinatos de los m�dicos que hab�an practicado abortos.

�Puedo votar por mi?

Humildemente,
Scardanelli.

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 1:50 pm ¶
Minutisa wrote:

Pues yo voto por Alfredo, naturalmente, aunque no s� qu� se puede extraer de una votaci�n as� y a qu� conclusiones lleva y si sirve de algo m�s que de tupido velo y punto final a un di�logo por lo dem�s necesario y fruct�fero.

Salut � tous.

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 1:53 pm ¶
jose_10 wrote:

Yo abro un nuevo frente, �cu�ntos grupos que canten en castellano puede actuar en las provincias vascas? No es eso censura para quien�s no quieran cantar en vasco.

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 2:03 pm ¶
Nexus 6 wrote:

Estoy totalmente de acuerdo con Alfredo, y me parece incre�ble que a estas alturas de la pel�cula la gente salte como un muelle a defender grupos que no solo son penosos desde el punto de vista musical, si no que aun encima escriben cosas tan insultantes y execrables.
Estoy seguro de que si estos grupos fuesen de Madrid y se llamasen «Divisi�n Azul» o «Hijos de Hitler» y dijesen exactamente lo mismo en sus letras pero refiri�ndose a Espa�a, esta gente no dir�a lo mismo.
Lo que tambien me fastidia es el radikalismo pail�n con k de malo malote de moda que hay ahora, con camiseta incluida de S.A. y militancia de la gilipollez.
Por otra parte me parece totalmente leg�timo que asociaciones como AVT defiendan el sentido com�n y la inteligencia. Es de l�gica que el pueblo busque sus propios m�todos de presi�n, dentro de la legalidad, para que los derechos humanos se cumplan y para que todos vivamos un poco mejor. Como me parece l�cito una asociaci�n pro derechos humanos o de defensa de los animales.
Me pregunto por que no hay ning�n grupo de m�sica que ponga a parir a ETA en sus letras. �No ser� por el puto s�ndrome del norte?.

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 2:16 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Solamente he o�do una canci�n contra ETA en un disco, el que hicieron juntos Joaqu�n Sabina y Fito P�ez. En cuanto a la votaci�n, como no puedo votarme a m� mismo, voto a Scardanelli.

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 2:24 pm ¶
Gobo wrote:

Voto por Scardanelli.

Creo que se nos esta escapando algo en este debate. Creo que se nos olvida la libertad que todos tenemos (y algunos deseamos llevar a cabo) para ver actuar a estos grupos. Yo escucho su musica practicamente todos los d�as y no me he vuelto pro-etarra.

Por que he de aguantar, cuando voy al futbol, al grupo ultra de turno cantando el «Cara al Sol», mientras la policia mira para otro lado? Pues porque los descerebrados que la cantan no me estan hostiando (aunque les apetezca bastante).

Me gustar�a que os dieseis cuenta, Alfredo, Minutisa y compa��a, que tenemos el cerebro suficiente como para oir una canci�n y no tomarla como ejemplo ni como patr�n de vida.

Por cierto, «El Sindrome del Norte» no ha sido tocada por S.A. en sus directos desde casi hace 8 a�os, pero eso supongo que da igual.

Ah, y a ver cuantos de los que estais en contra no habeis tarareado alguna vez «Sarri,Sarri», de Kortatu, o «Barrio Conflictivo», de Barricada, canciones tanto o mas «peligrosas que la de S.A.

Un saludo desde Asturias… «Porque Asturias, es mi patria…» Es una canci�n de Melendi, que tenga cuidado con lo que dice…

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 2:48 pm ¶
Echos Bones wrote:

Que yo sepa, no hay boicot contra grupos que cantan en espa�ol en ning�n lugar de Euskad� – pero quiz�s mi informaci�n no est� completa.
En cuando a la votaci�n, yo creo que es una manera sana y divertida de finalizar una apasionante conversaci�n. Es decir, sin mayor trascendencia.
En cuanto a lo dicho por el Nexus 6: �ticamente me parecen insultantes y excrables algunas cosas que canta Mugu. Pero no quiero prohibirlo. C�sar Vidal, Vargas Llosa o Carlos Fuentes en art�culos de prensa, Borges acerca de pol�tica, y otros tantos son ejemplos de autores que dicen cosas para mi gusto insultantes y execrables. Pero no quiero prohibirlos. Me basta con leerlos con ojo cr�tico, y contraargumentar cuando es posible. Incluso me bastar�a con no leerlos. Pero no prohibirlos.
Josu Ternera, Mikel Antza, … deben estar en la c�rcel. Ferm�n Muguruza, en la calle. No ha cometido ning�n delito.
Un par de cosas para concluir: el sentido com�n y la inteligencia no son comunes, ni necesariamente universales. As� pues, no me parecen coartada para ninguna actividad como las practicadas por la AVT.
Lo que viene a continuaci�n quiz�s suene pol�mico, pero quiero aclarar que estoy �ticamente en contra de la violencia y en contra de la majader�a mafiosa de ETA.
Pero, la declaci�n universal de derechos humanos (aquella votada en las NU) me parece una imposici�n postcolonial que ampara muchas actividades que atenta contra la �tica. Me explico: la declaraci�n universal de derechos humanos fue redactada (no me importa qui�n la vota, sino qui�n la redacta) por un grupo de pol�ticos e intelectuales de mediana y avanzada edad, mayoritariamente occidentales, de clase alta, mayoritariamente blancos, mayoritariamente hombres. Esta misma fundaci�n, en mi opini�n, la descalifica como universal. Es, desde mi punto de vista, profundamente occidental, est� marcada por el g�nero de sus autores, y resulta impositiva (de ah� lo de colonial).
No me entend�is mal: creo que ese documento es un buen primer paso, sobre todo teniendo en cuenta cu�ndo fue redacto. Ahora bien, no deber�a modificarse, abrirse a otras culturas, incluir otros problemas derivados del progreso? O, m�s a�n, por qu� universal? Por qu� no local? Lo que nosotros consideramos como un derecho b�sico puede no ser considerado de ese modo por una cultura oriental. Les imponemos nuestra percepci�n de los derechos humanos, o entramos en di�logo con esa cultura hasta llegar a un acuerdo?
(me acusar�n de relativista moral, o de uno de esos que puede justificar la ablaci�n o el velo isl�mico como «pr�cticas aceptables». Nada m�s all� de la realidad: pero no quiero imponer mi visi�n occidental, quiero dialogar con esa cultura, eliminando lo que es denigrante sin arrasar con todo a mi paso).
Mi segundo punto pol�mico: comparto como individuo el dolor de las v�ctimas del terrorismo, conociendo incluso a una. Pero no les doy la raz�n: ser v�ctima no te otorga superioridad moral sobre nadie. Es una desgracia lo que les ha ocurrido, pero no les llena de raz�n. En todo caso, de odio.
Quisiera vivir en Espa�a para poder acudir a la entrega de los premios Goya y dar un abrazo a Medem. Est� siendo linchado, y pocos se han puesto p�blicamente de su lado. Yo, peque�o y en la distancia, lo estoy.

Saludos

Echos Bones

(por cierto, no abrazar�a a Mugu, aunque lo respeto)

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 2:49 pm ¶
Alfredo_MG wrote:

Quiero aclarar (dios m�o, esto parece inacabable), que aquellos que comprendemos y apoyamos la actitud de la ATV con respecto a la suspensi�n de conciertos en ning�n momento (creo no equivocarme, porque hay muchos mensajes) hemos dicho que Muguruza o Sociedad Alkoh�lica tengan que estar en la c�rcel, simplemente vemos leg�tima una labor informativa as�, incluso aunque sea un boicot con cierta organizaci�n que no vulnere las leyes ni conlleve amenazas solapadas. Creo que se trata de un boicot l�gico y l�cito (y lleno de sentido com�n) contra unos payasos que les r�en las gracias a ETA. Y, Gobo, no digo ni por asomo que seas pro-etarra, pero sostienes con tu dinero (comprando discos, pagando entradas de conciertos) a unos grand�simos hijos de Sabino Arana (aunque no tengas la m�s m�nima mala intenci�n). Y, por cierto, me ha parecido interesant�sima la reflexi�n de Echos Bones sobre los derechos humanos. Podemos tratarlo pr�ximamente.

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 3:58 pm ¶
Kortatu el Mugalari wrote:

Dice Scardanelli:

«�Milagro, Kortatu, he leido la entrevista a Muguruza que nos has copiado tan amablemente y… sigo vivo! �D�nde est� el peligro? Sentir asco no es suficiente raz�n para prohibir hablar a nadie. Y, Kortatu, yo al menos s� estoy en contra de todos los boicots (Ser� porque no llevo txapela).»

Claro que sentir asco no es suficiente raz�n para prohibir hablar a nadie. Si as� fuese, el jesuita filonazi de Arz�lluz tendr�a una mordaza en la boca desde hace tiempo.

De todos modos, �qui�n est� prohibiendo que este sujeto hable, se exprese, se explaye, haga declaraciones, emita comunicados, saque discos, haga giras por el extranjero (l�ase Espa�a) o participe en los conciertos antiglobalizadores, junto a ese fraude que atiende al nombre de Manu Chao?

�No aprecias cierta contradicci�n en tus palabras?

�No te das cuenta de que, si he pegado aqu� las declaraciones de Ferm�n Muguruza, es porque este sujeto se expresa libremente?

�No te das cuenta de que su libertad de expresi�n no est� en modo alguno coartada por el estado de derecho?

�No percibes ning�n tipo de inmoralidad en la verborrea proetarra de este personajillo que cree que la ETA ha aportado muchos logros al bienestar del Pa�s Vasco, gracias a secuestros y asesinatos?

�No te repugna que este fulano filoterrorista se haga pajas mentales con el ecoterrorismo de ETA ensalzando el secuestro y asesinato del ingeniero jefe de Lem�niz?

�No te das cuenta de que su discurso paraviolento es m�s denostable si cabe (al margen de tus escr�pulos), precisamente porque ese grupo terrorista que tanto ha hecho por la construcci�n nazional euskalduna impide la libertad de expresi�n en el Pa�s Vasco?

Evidentemente, Muguruza & C�a. pueden ser todo lo proetarras que quieran, pero los Ayuntamientos de M�laga o de Murcia no tienen por qu� cederles sus instalaciones, pagadas por los contribuyentes de estas ciudades (donde el discurso etarra como que no tiene mucho predicamento) para que diseminen su basura proterrorista. Para eso est� el bazoki de la esquina de casa, para que Muguruza y todos sus amiguetes jueguen a ser h�roes de una naci�n tan m�tica como El Se�or de los Anillo o El Virgo de Bisanteta.

La libertad de expresi�n no consiste en que yo me pase por el ayuntamiento de mi pueblo y exija que me cedan el auditorio municipal para organizar un concierto de mi flamante grupo musical de rock alternativo, «Muguruza y su Gentuza me comen la Merluza».

La libertad de expresi�n no consiste en que yo me dedicque a organizar una manifestaci�n cu�ndo y d�nde me venga en gana s�lo porque me entre el punto de expresar mi disgusto con Muguruza y sus inclinaciones pol�ticas.

Te lo digo m�s claro, en el pabell�n de deportes municipal de M�laga no toca un bastardo como el Muguruza con mi dinero y me parece leg�timo (de hecho es l�cito) que el Ayuntamiento se niegue a transigir por ah�. Y es que da la casualidad de que el Ayuntamiento est� dominado por el PP, que da la casulidad que eligieron la mayor�a de los ciudadanos de M�laga. Y da la casualidad, que ya son muchas casualidades –�no crees?–, de que en esa corporaci�n municipal hab�a un concejal que se llamaba Jos� Mar�a Mat�n Carpena, a quien los amigos de Muguruza mataron de un tiro (o varios) en la nuca delante de su mujer y su hijo cuando sal�an de casa para celebrar la noche de San Juan. Y por eso el pabell�n de deportes se llama as�. En honor a una v�ctima de los amigos de Muguruza. �D�nde est� su libertad de expresi�n?

No s� t�, pero yo creo que lo inmoral hubiese sido adoptar esa tibieza con la que t� pareces sentirte tan a gusto. �Facilidades para Muguruza? Ni una.

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 4:46 pm ¶
Kortatu el Mugalari wrote:

Tiene gracia:

«Por cierto me he enterado que la ATV tiene pensado utilizar su libertad de expresi�n para protestar el s�bado, por la candidatura de Medem a mejor documental en la gala de los «premios». Me parece que eso es presionar la conciencia de un jurado para que sienta remordimientos a la hora de juzgar la obra de un autor. S� que es una desgracia lo que han sufrido en sus carnes por culpa de unos asesinos, pero de ah� ha que intenten ser una instancia superior que diga a los dem�s lo que es moral y lo que es inmoral va un largo trecho.»

Eso es, EXACTAMENTE, lo que ocurri� el a�o pasado con la Guerra de Irak, s�lo que en plan «si eres del PP (o no est�s contra Bush) eres un fascista». Claro que es cierto que Bush no compet�a como director.

El problema es que cada uno cree l�cito boicotear a los dem�s en funci�n de sus propios intereses. Eso es lo que hacen los grupos de presi�n como Amnist�a Internacional, Greenpeace y dem�s organizaciones con una agenda prefijada: velar por sus intereses. La AVT no tiene por qu� ser distinta.

No creo que sea de recibo meter aqu� el factor moralidad y, menos a�n, teniendo en cuenta el pitote que le montaron al Mendiluce ciertos cretinos de tomo y lomo como Sabina y Ana Bel�n (s�, aquella ni�a bonita del tardofranquismo). Eso s� que es coartar la libertad de expresi�n y lo dem�s, pamplinas. Pero, claro, entonces era por una «buena causa».

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 5:00 pm ¶
Sondeo a pie de urna wrote:

Scardanelli: 7 votos
Alfredo: 1 voto

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 6:01 pm ¶
Scardanelli wrote:

Ponle uno m�s a Alfredo, que yo tampoco puedo votar por mi y aqu� no vale la falsa neutralidad del voto en blanco.

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 6:10 pm ¶
Strepto wrote:

Sumadle un voto a Alfredo de mi parte, �ste tema me parece cans�n hasta cierto punto. Adem�s cro que Minutisa le dar�a otro voto. Lo lamento pero de �sta conversaci�n me borro. Me ha fastidiado y en extremis y sinceramente no pienso que la suspensi�n de los conciertos de Muguruza y su Merluza nos orille al Estado Policial como algunos quieren anotar por aqu�.

Salud y Adeu

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 6:21 pm ¶
Nexus 6 wrote:

Tienes toda la raz�n, Kortatu el Mugalari, y opino exactamente lo que t� en tus dos �ltimos posts.
Hablando de la nominaci�n de Menem, la AVT claro que tiene todo el derecho del mundo a manifestar legalmente su repulsa por la canditatura de una pel�cula, no hacen da�o a nadie, simplemente ejercen su derecho a manifestarse libremente por algo que consideran injusto. No le estan poniendo una pistola en la nuca al jurado.

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 6:27 pm ¶
Sondeo a pie de urna wrote:

Scardanelli: 6
Alfredo: 3

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 6:44 pm ¶
Echos Bones wrote:

Hola a todos,

s�lo un par de cosas: la AVT boicotea la pel�cula de Medem de una manera que recuerda levemente a los camisas pardas (c�mo es que pone su cartel: «No al pelota vasco. La piel y la nuca contra la bala»?). Pueden protestar, argumentar en contra de ella,o recomendar que no la vaya a ver nadie con argumentos de peso. Pero que digan que es inmoral porque falta al respeto de las v�ctimas … bueno, Medem ya ha respondido a eso mejor que yo, as� que me silencio cortesmente.
En cuando a lo de los derechos humanos, ser�a interesante discutirlo, pero no en esta entrada del blog, Alfredo, que est� un poco saturada. Lo espero ardientemente.
Ah, y gracias a (casi) todos por una muy interesante discusi�n. Que as� da gusto,caramba!
Saludos,

Echos Bones

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 7:00 pm ¶
Ictineo wrote:

MI voto es para Scardanelli.
El aparecer ingenuo porque se mantiene coherencia ante preguntas-trampa o vitriolo-lapas no es dem�rito. Creo solidamente que la coherencia por dolorosa que sea no va a ser m�s necesaria con los inn�meros ejemplos que ha dado la historia a aquellos pueblos que renunciaron a ser estrictos en la aplicaci�n de los principios que conforman la convivencia tal como hoy la entenedemos.

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 7:19 pm ¶
Kortatu el Mugalari wrote:

Es evidente que hay quien habla por hablar. Y lo que en un tema tan interesante como los �ltimos resultados de la Liga pudiera ser entretenido, no tiene aqu�, por la naturaleza del tema, ni pizca de gracia.

«s�lo un par de cosas: la AVT boicotea la pel�cula de Medem de una manera que recuerda levemente a los camisas pardas»

PD: Av�sanos cuando los de la AVT conviertan en pastilla de jab�n a Josu Ternera. Hasta donde yo s�, esa piltrafa ha pasado por la c�rcel y no ha acabado delante de una tapia con el «pelot�n del amanecer». No, al contrario. Acab� de aforado en un tinglado que llaman Parlamento Vasco, pero en realidad es el cortijo de un tal Atutxa. Acab� ganando un sueldazo a costa de los contribuyentes (vascos y no vascos) y cobrando dietas que ya las quisiera para s� un maraj�.

Evidentemente, los colectivos de v�ctimas son todos como los nazis y los verdugos son pobres oprimidos por la violencia represora del Estado.

Ahora expl�canos (si eres tan amable): �c�mo consigues teclear haciendo el pino? �O acaso en tu mundo de ilusi�n y fantas�a todo est� del rev�s?

Se nota que conoces a pocos vascos. Por aqu� hay muchos. Me pregunto si ser� porque les gusta la Costa del Sol por lo que se vienen a vivir aqu�…

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 7:23 pm ¶
kretzel wrote:

Mi voto para Alfredo.

Me estoy gastando los jornales por conectarme y leeros. Como se vuelva a producir otro debate interesante (que tiempos los de Rocco y la Selaccion)os juro que no me volveis a ver el pelo….

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 7:39 pm ¶
saian wrote:

Lo de la censura a grupos que canten en castellano me parece una prueba de la desinformaci�n que (tal vez) sufren algunos. Aqu� en el Pa�s Vasco lo que s� que se dio hace unos a�itos fue un boicot contra un grupo llamado Eskorbuto por canciones que pon�an a parir a Herri Batasuna, Gestoras y su entorno, como la antol�gica «Haciendo Bobadas» («Si alguien quiere entender a qui�n va dedicada la cancion, que coja las iniciales del t�tulo» segun Josu el cantante). Esto me parece igual de condenable que lo que est� pasando con Muguruza o Medem.
Ten�is raz�n en que �ste debae ya est� agotado, con lo cuan me refirmo: nadie (yo incluido) ha cambiado su postura a pesar de argumentos tan bien razonados para las dos partes, con lo que �que «difusi�n de ideas» pueden hacer un pu�ado de canciones frente a toda la catarata de prensa, TV, internet que nos cae constantemente?. Es como cuando se «boicotea» al tal Ynestrillas en sus m�tines redentores norte�os: nadie le iba a hacer ning�n caso.
Tambi�n es muy condenable , por ejemplo, arruinarte la vida por el consumo excesivo de drogas. �ver�ais bien que se boicoteara a los grupos de m�sica que defienden el mismo?

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 7:41 pm ¶
Saian wrote:

Solo recordar que la AVT al boicotear la pel�cula de Medem esta tambi�n bocoteando a otra v�ctima de ETA llamada Mireia Lluch. !Que l�o! Por cierto, mi «voto», para Scardanelli, mi agradecimiento, para todos los que han paricipado en el debate.

Posted 30 Ene 2004 at 7:53 pm ¶
Echos Bones wrote:

En vista de la airada respuesta de Kortatu el Mugalari, me veo obligado a continuar este debate, mil disculpas.
Para empezar, los camisas pardas a los que aludo se refieren a los grupos fascistas que apoyaron a Mussolini con diversas algaradas callejeras y boicots al gobierno italiano anterior al Duce. Su t�ctica no era exclusivamente el porrazo, el tiro, o el apaleamiento. Tambi�n extorsionaban, cerraban establecimientos, cortaban calles o atosigaban a intelectuales.
As� pues, el primer t�rmino de mi comparaci�n se refiere a estas �ltimas actividades.
Pero con la analog�a tambi�n quiero recordar que los camisas pardas eran fascistas. En sentido literal, fascista viene de «fascio», que en espa�ol deriv� en «haz». Si eran llamados as� se debe a que mostraban una unidad en sus filas extremadamente compacta (sobre todo comparados con los grupos de izquierda y comunistas de la Italia de los a�os 20, por no hablar de los anarquistas). No hab�a disidencias, no hab�a fracturas ni debates internos o externos. Eran, literalmente, un «haz» (en gallego, mi segunda lengua madre, la palabra es «feixe», y fascistas, «feixistas»: ah� se ven las ra�ces m�s claras).
Espero que estos datos contextualicen mi analog�a, tan mal interpretada (aunque no niego que ten�a intenci�n de comparar los m�todos de la AVT con la de los camisas pardas).
Pero hay una cosa que me irrita a�n m�s, mugalari, que la falta de precisi�n, y es esa tendencia entre mentes bienpensantes a igualar la cr�tica a las v�ctimas del terrorismo con la defensa de los verdugos. Porque exprese una cr�tica contra una asociaci�n de v�ctimas del terrorismo particular no implica que defienda a los verdugos. Condeno a los verdugos, y les deseo las m�s largas estancias posibles en la c�rcel. Pero no puedo �ticamente justificar el comportamiento de la AVT en el caso del boicot a Medem o de las presiones al mundo del cine para que digan un (cada vez m�s vacuo) No a ETA.
Insisto, ser v�ctima no te otorga una nueva dimensi�n,una nueva altura moral. No por ser v�ctima sus argumentos tienen m�s razones que la de aquellos que se oponen a la violencia y que, afortunadamente, no han perdido a nadie ni han sufrido un atentado.
Detesto es discurso maniqueo de o unos u otros. No estoy en contra de la AVT, sino de sus m�todos. Estoy en contra de ETA y de sus m�todos. Ah� radica la diferencia.
Debo tener el derecho a disentir, y a ver rebatidos mis argumentos con argumentos, no con lecturas parciales y sesgadas de ellos. Ah� te emplazo, mugalari. Pero no en ning�n otro tipo de discusi�n.

respetuosamente,

Echos Bones

Posted 31 Ene 2004 at 11:42 am ¶
Echos Bones wrote:

Mi airada reacci�n me hizo olvidar un detalle muy importante que quer�a decir:
muchas gracias a todos, de nuevo.

afectuosamente,

Echos Bones

Posted 31 Ene 2004 at 11:45 am ¶
tinet wrote:

lo de la AVT no tiene nombre… ahora nos vienen con la manifestaci�n anti-m�dem («pelota vasco»… p’a morirse) porque su documentalillo est� nominado a los goya.

nos vienen a decir que m�dem es poco m�s que un filoetarra y que con su documental est� apoyando a los asesinos.

hay que joderse con esos no-nacionalistas (!) que luchan por la libertad (me imagino que de expresi�n no), la democracia (me imagino que s�lo la suya) y que se han convertido en los �NICOS defensores de las v�ctimas (s�lo las suyas).

Barvo, m�dem, porque aunque tu documental deja mucho que desear, cada vez se merece m�s esa mierda de goya.

Posted 31 Ene 2004 at 12:08 pm ¶
Kortatu el Mugalari wrote:

En vista de la pataleta del tal Tinet, conviene precisar que la libertad de expresi�n se basa en escuchar lo que no te gusta oir. Si a M�dem no le gusta oir lo que tienen que decir las v�ctimas de los nazionanistas como �l, se puede quedar en casita con un patxar�n, o con un no-patxar�n, que es lo que debe trasegar ese otro admirable pacifista que es Carod-Rovira.

Con lo que hay que joderse, Tinet, es con payasos de la talla de Jos� Luis P�rez Carod-Rovira, ese charnego, hijo de un picoleto aragon�s y una madre «molt catal�», que disimula su espa�olidad y lo castizo de sus ra�ces renegando de sus verdaderos apellidos y potenciando su imagen de catal�n de pura cepa, como si as� pudiese escapar al hecho incontrovertible de que, le guste o no, como catal�n es espa�ol de facto.

Por eso, Tinet, el amigo P�rez se disfraza de quintaesencia de lo catal�n. O sea, de Carod, algo que no es. Algo que implica travestirse en tanto que reniega se sus or�genes, de su parte espa�ola, como quien reniega de sus g�nadas para cambiar de sexo.

Y es que este esperp�ntico personajillo, con su barretina calada hasta las cejas, es un cobarde de los pies a la cabeza, que ni siquiera es capaz de afrontar qui�n es, por eso lo oculta bajo una fachada de falsa catalanidad. Lo hace todo a escondidas, como entrevistarse con ETA, porque sabe que lo que hace es reprensible, pero es un cobarde y no puede remediarlo, como la mayor�a de la escoria nacionalista. Ni siquiera puede asumir frente a su electorado que es medio charnego. Y lo sabe, pero le da miedo asumir su identidad. Por eso reniega de su parte espa�ola, como todo buen nacionalista.

�sa es la verdadera tragedia de este pa�s, que haya gente que cambie el orden de sus apellidos para ocultar que su padre es maketo o charnego y transigir as� con el racismo intr�nseco a la idea misma del nacionalismo cerril y antiespa�ol. Y lo triste es que haya personas tan ciegas como t� como para no verlo. O, peor a�n, para verlo y participar en esa fiesta con chascarrillos inopinados sobre la AVT.

Posted 01 Feb 2004 at 12:24 am ¶
Kortatu el Mugalari wrote:

Scardanelli,

Se agradece el detalle hist�rico, pero me parece a m� que lo relevante aqu� era la comparaci�n entre la AVT y los camisas pardas en una clara alusi�n al radicalismo totalitario.

Se da la casualidad de que, sin entrar en demasiadas precisiones hist�ricas, todas las organizaciones de corte nazi o facista comparten la metodolog�a totalitaria, con independencia de que pertenezcan al fascio o al NSDAP, pero ya que estamos, creo que te refieres a las «camisas negras», no pardas.

En todo caso, lo b�sico est� dicho: t� crees que la AVT se comporta como un grupo de ultraderecha. Cada cual que saque sus conclusiones sobre tus juicios de valor.

Posted 01 Feb 2004 at 12:31 am ¶
Echos Bones wrote:

Kortatu el mugalari,

tienes raz�n se�al�ndome el error entre pardas y negras. Mi error es debido a una confusi�n entre el grupo especial de las SS llamados «camisas pardas» (que colaboraron en el atentado contra Hitler de 1944), y los «camisas negras» italianos. Pido disculpas por el error.
En cuanto a mi comparaci�n entre los m�todos de la AVT y los de grupos fascistas (que no de ultraderecha – el fascismo es en s� mismo una ideolog�a, bastante confusa: nacional-socialismo, por ejemplo), efectivamente, tal era mi intenci�n. Y no me retracto. Ahora bien, insisto, s�lo sus m�todos en estos casos determinados.

afectuosa (y cansada)mente,

Echos Bones

PS: Kortatu, me temo que has confundido a Scardenelli con un servidor, o vice versa. Agradezco que me compares con tan ilustre r�tor.

Posted 01 Feb 2004 at 12:31 pm ¶
Marzo wrote:

Echos, que yo sepa los «camisas pardas» eran las SA (Sturm Abteilung, Secciones de Asalto: las milicias/partidas de la porra del Partido de los Trabajadores Alem�n Socialista Nacional), ciertamente no una parte de las SS (Schutz Staffeln, Escuadras de Protecci�n: originalmente un servicio de escolta para los l�deres del partido, muy especialmente un tal Adolf Hitler).

Y no se caracterizaban precisamente por sus manifestaciones pac�ficas. Comparar a la AVT incluso con los Camisas Negras italianos, algo menos dr�sticos, lo juzgar� acertado cuando sepamos que al pobrecito Medem, inocente v�ctima de las v�ctimas que no comprenden a sus verdugos como �l, le han hecho alguna violencia; digamos, por seguir la tradici�n, obligarle tragar aceite de ricino. Por ahora y en el futuro previsible los sapos con que se haya podido desayunar son puramente ret�ricos y se los ha guisado la exquisita sensibilidad �tica que �l mismo confiesa. Mientras tanto, considero tal comparaci�n una estupidez intelectual y una idiotez moral.

«Pero que digan que es inmoral porque falta al respeto de las v�ctimas…» Bueno, ellos son v�ctimas y ellos creen que les falta al respeto; alg�n derecho tendr�n a opinar; �o ellos no? Pero ya se va viendo que, en efecto, ellos no. Llamarle «pelota» a �l, bu�, ni�os malos, fascistas, que son unos fascistas. Y, por supuesto, lo de «La piel y la nuca contra las pistolas» es nazi total, comprendo sus pesadillas: se ver� en ellas el infeliz perseguido, acosado, rodeado, enca�onado por… nucas agujereadas, cargadas con balas del nueve largo.

Posted 01 Feb 2004 at 2:54 pm ¶
Marzo wrote:

Por cierto, ya que Seth ha tenido la oportun�sima y aun genial idea de decidir la verdad (o un suced�neo) mediante una votaci�n, y aunque parezca algo off-topic, propongo otra: �cu�ntos cre�is que el RMS «Titanic» est� en el fondo del mar, matarilerilerile, y cu�ntos que est� a flote? Si ganan estos �ltimos, se sortear�n entre ellos dos pasajes en su pr�ximo crucero.

Yo voto que el Titanic est� a flote.

Posted 01 Feb 2004 at 2:58 pm ¶
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Marzo,
cierto en lo de las SS y las camisas pardas (tengo que aprender a revisar los textos que env�o, que la s est� levemente cerca de la a). Tienes raz�n, as� que pido disculpas por mi inconcecci�n hist�rica.
En cuanto a la comparaci�n de los m�todos de la AVT y los camisas negras, la mantengo (don de la tozudez). Veamos: Medem ha realizado un documental acerca de la situaci�n en Euskal Herria/El Pa�s Vasco/Las Vascongadas en el que no se cumple punto por punto lo que estos se�ores quieren ver. Es m�s, lo consideran ofensivo.
Hasta ah�, de acuerdo: pueden expresarse y criticar, pues talen son sus derechos.
Ahora bien, lo que no admito es que coaccionen a la Academia del Cine Espa�ol o al propio Medem; que insulten a Medem calific�ndolo de proetarra (pueden denunciarlo si es as�, y con la bater�a de leyes contra el terrorismo que hay en Espa�a seguro que, de ser culpable, saltaba la liebre) por exponer su opini�n sin herir a nadie, y entrando en debate (s�lo hace falta darse una vuelta por el foro de la p�gina web de la pel�cula); o llamar a una actriz «asesina» por negarse a llevar una pegatina mientras llevaba otra.
Me niego a que nadie me imponga su sem�ntica de la condena; me niego a que s�lo haya un �nico eslogan posible contra el terrorismo de ETA; me niego a sentirme amenazado y tener que pedir disculpas por, oh dios m�o, condenar a ETA con mis propias palabras; me niego a justificar un linchamiento moral porque en ese pa�s s�lo puede haber una visi�n, s�lida y monol�tica, del conflicto/situaci�n/status quo vasco.
Me niego a la coacci�n de la AVT. No creo que sean fascistas, insisto. Pero s� sus m�todos. Y ese ha sido mi motivo a lo largo de esta discusi�n.
Algunos miembros de la AVT parecen querer convertirse en h�roes de este conflicto tan artificial. Bertolt Brecht (y Marzo, conozco tu filiaci�n, espero la respuesta) dijo: «Afortunado es el pueblo que tiene h�roes, pero m�s afortunado aqu�l que no los necesita».

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Posted 01 Feb 2004 at 3:49 pm ¶
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Hola, Echos.

«Ser etarra» es delito de pertenencia a banda armada. «Ser proetarra y ayudar a ETA en la comisi�n de un delito» es delito. «Ser proetarra», que yo sepa, no es delito. Decir «eres proetarra» no es delito (aunque pueda ser err�neo, esa es otra cuesti�n).

—-
> me niego a justificar un linchamiento moral porque en ese pa�s s�lo puede haber una visi�n, s�lida y monol�tica, del conflicto/situaci�n/status quo vasco.

No lo entiendo. Aqu�, curiosamente, la teor�a de la equidistancia y la simetr�a falla. �La AVT no puede tener «una visi�n s�lida y monol�tica» pero PNV, EA, y ETA/HB/EH/SA/comosellamen s�? �ETA/etc pueden destruir propiedad, amenazar a gente, matarla, y hay que comprenderlos porque hay un conflicto; pero la AVT no puede quejarse de que se considera agraviada, de que creen que Medem favorece a sus enemigos, de que Medem no ha tenido la decencia de sacar de su pel�cula, seg�n acuerdo previo, a quien ya no quiere aparecer en ella, y expresar todo esto por medios legales sin «usar m�todos fascistas»?

(Peque�o experimento mental de agravio comparativo: si fuera Otegui quien hubiese pedido a Medem eliminar su entrevista de la pel�cula, �crees que no hubiera accedido? �Cu�l es la sutil diferencia con Gotzone Mora?)

—-
>Algunos miembros de la AVT parecen querer convertirse en h�roes de este conflicto tan artificial. Bertolt Brecht (y Marzo, conozco tu filiaci�n, espero la respuesta) dijo: «Afortunado es el pueblo que tiene h�roes, pero m�s afortunado aqu�l que no los necesita».

Bueno, Echos, mi filiaci�n no es un secreto para nadie que la conozca. Ya s� que nos hemos visto en otros blogs, y que incluso he tenido el honor de ser citado como mal ejemplo en un comentario de Mekral en otro de los blogs definitivos.

«Algunos miembros de la AVT» han perdido padres, hijos, c�nyuges, hermanos o miembros. Para un conflicto «artificial», no est� mal. Si te refer�as al «conflicto» de la pel�cula de Medem, te pido disculpas; pero en ese caso no entiendo la alusi�n al hero�smo: �qu� «hero�smo» puede ver nadie en oponerse simplemente a una pel�cula?

«Querer convertirse en h�roes»… No me consta. Pero pongamos que as� es. El hero�smo es un asunto en buena parte circunstancial; si yo quiero ser un h�roe, pero llevo una vida pac�fica y aburrida en un lugar pac�fico y aburrido donde nunca pasa nada, tendr� pocas ocasiones.

Ahora bien, en algunos casos se presenta a una persona la opci�n de ser o h�roe o cobarde: de arrostrar un grave riesgo para evitar un da�o a otras personas, o de evitar el riesgo y dejar que el da�o siga su curso. Puede ser una anciana atrapada en un incendio, un ni�o que se ahoga en un r�o. Una banda criminal que mata y extorsiona.

«Algunos miembros de la AVT» se han tropezado con la banda criminal; no buscan ponerse en situaci�n de ser h�roes, sino que ya les han puesto en ella. Una vez han sufrido da�os les queda la opci�n: tratar de olvidar, «no significarse» (�cuando ya han sido significados!), u oponerse al mal que sufrieron, y que siguen sufriendo ellos y centenares de miles de personas en mayor o menor grado. Sabido esto, Echos, reprocharles una, supongo, fr�vola vocaci�n de h�roes equivale a recomendar la cobard�a, la cesi�n ante el mal para evitar m�s males para s� mismos. Me parece profundamente injusto a fuerza de superficial.

(Y no estoy llamando necesariamente «cobardes» a las v�ctimas que no act�an como la AVT, como la colaboradora de Medem o aquel pobre chico de las juventudes del PSE; pueden creer estar oponi�ndose al mal. Pero s� est�n equivocados, en mi opini�n, que es la �nica que tengo).

Feliz es el pueblo que no necesita h�roes, s�… pero doblemente desdichado el que, cuando los necesita, no los halla.

Posted 01 Feb 2004 at 5:52 pm ¶
Echos Bones wrote:

Hola Marzo,

en efecto, nos hemos encontrado anteriormente. Mi referencia era un poquillo jocosa, y espero que no la malinterpretaras (supuse que citar al �berprogre de Brecht tendr�a consecuencias).
Por cierto, aunque la discusi�n se acalore, personalmente me resulta interesante debatir contigo,al igual que con muchos otros. En la disensi�n hay inter�s, y siempre resultas, para mi gusto, educado.
As� que es ahora mi turno en este tenis de mesa:
Creo que decir «eres proetarra» p�blicamente puede ser difamaci�n. Es una intuici�n, simplemente: quien sepa de leyes sabr� la verdad, en este caso.
Creo, de todos modos, que hay algunos puntos en tu cr�tica que no est�n muy acertados. En ning�n momento, creo, he manifestado mi opini�n acerca de Euskadi/Pais Vasco/Vascongadas, por lo que tu comentario acerca de la equidistancia me parece una respuesta «fantasma» a un comentario que (todav�a) no he hecho. He hablado de pel�culas, de libertad de expresi�n, y de la manera de actuar de la AVT. No he dicho nada acerca de ninguna situaci�n pol�tica.
Como apunte: la equidistancia me parece un t�rmino de mal gusto, que adem�s no lleva a ninguna parte. Pero esa es otra historia, �no?
Hay otros temas sobre los que me declaro ignorante. «La Pelota Vasca» no ha llegado al rinc�n escandinavo en el que vivo (aunque se ha intentado), as� que no he podido verla. No puedo, pues, opinar sobre su contenido, cosa que creo no haber hecho, por otra parte.
En todo caso, por supuesto que la AVT puede quejarse y protestar contra la pel�cula de Medem. Lo que no admito, insisto, es el modo en el que se han manifestado tanto a la puerta de la ceremon�a de los premios esos, como durante el estreno en Donostia/San Sebasti�n de la cinta. Protestar, informar, contrargumentar, s�; coaccionar, prohibir, no.
Por cierto, no sab�a que Medem no hab�a retirado los testimonios de las personas que as� lo pidieron. No me parece muy l�gico, y s� reprobable. En cuanto al caso-ficci�n de Otegi, no puedo responderte porque no he visto la cinta, y por tanto estoy fuera de contexto.
En cuanto al tema de los h�roes (porque la artificialidad es la de la pol�mica sobre Medem: no me atrever�a a llamar al otro conflicto «artificial»), no vamos a llegar a ning�n acuerdo. Sigo pensando que algunos miembros de la AVT s� que se erigen como h�roes, jaleados en este caso por ciertos medios de comunicaci�n (cierta prensa digital, desconozco si lo mismo sucede en la impresa, los ha calificado en las �ltimas semanas como «h�roes de la democracia y la tolerancia» – si no recuerdo mal la cita es de abc.es; desconozco el autor, pero s� recuerdo que pertenece a la apertura del congreso sobre v�ctimas del terrorismo en Madrid).
Yo tampoco llamar�a cobardes a quienes no se pronuncian de este modo. Aunque intento comprender las razones que llevan a la AVT a actuar de este modo. Es mi opini�n, tambi�n, que su metodolog�a en este caso es err�nea. Pero, como dir�a Bertrand Russell, «I might be wrong».
Por cierto, alguien me puede indicar una buena y fiable tienda online donde adquirir «La Pelota Vasca»? (tanto hablar de lo que ha pasado en torno a ella, y yo sin verla …

afectuosamente,

Echos Bones

Posted 01 Feb 2004 at 6:34 pm ¶
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Scardanelli: 8 votos.
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Sin querer reavivar el debate.
Pienso que el unico error que comete la AVT es pensar que quien no opine como ellos va en contra de ellos. Es este tipo de pensamiento «o estas conmigo o en contra de m�» es lo que para mi es extremista, ponerse en un extremo : No puede ser que por no ponerme la pegatina «NO a ETA», est� a favor de ETA.

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